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1.
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2. that was uncalled for.

Hahaha… haha… ha… Yeah, take that shit out of the serious debate section. If you wanna take pot shots at my attractiveness and be le master trolle you can go to riff-raff.

>Redhead
>Not being called out on attractive-ness

lel because I said le nice gentlemanly thing she has 2 fuk me now, rite (tips fedora)

But in all seriousness, I live in a fairly large town, but it's not something I see or her often. I don't know if it's just the location or the fact that I'm blind to it or just lucky enough to have never seen it.

Generally speaking, it seems to be one of those invisible things. You don't really notice them unless they happen to you. Which is kinda ironic considering it happens in public. Not saying it happens all the god damn time (although I guess that depends on your location), but it's not nonexistent either. Actually, you could make the comparison to bullying in school. You don't really see bullies kicking the shit out of their victims in the middle of the hall or shoving them into lockers like on tv, it's all in the background and you don't notice it unless you really look for it. At least, that's just going from my own experience in public schooling.

Concerning the video, I'm fully aware of these occurances taking places in streets all around the world. I have women friends who got followed in the streets and got remarks that escalated into insults wheither they answered or not to cat-calling. I have also witnessed it myself, from the nicest person who only complimented and tried to be nice to the mob of 3 or 4 blatantly throwing sexist insults.
I'm all in favor of what the video is trying to convey (minus the racial part) but, even if a agree, even if a similar stance has been done in France, Belgium and even (I don't remember exactly) another country in which roles were purposely reversed in order to raise awareness of the problem, there is still one single issue that is bugging me with this:

I've read the opinions from the two sides of this matter. Those who defend it use an argument that is kinda tricky, in my opinion → due to these constant harassments, women as a whole are mostly afraid when walking alone in the streets and getting accosted by any male stranger, because they can't guess at first glance if that person has genuinely nice intentions or not. Thus, it's normal for them to fear anyone trying to speak to them there and so we don't have to blame them for being afraid of anyone, even those with the nicest intends.

The problem with this rethoric is this: why is it normal to be afraid of a group of people (men) in the streets but not to be afraid of another group of people (insert any minority dressed as and acting like violent thugs) that same way as it would seem racist?
Why is one trend of thought legitimate and not the other?

This really bugs me.

Can we talk about this dumb article?

Barely read it, but…
>accuses Japan of being sexist
>Wants "sex"

Is it really that dumb? I mean, it's a western woman documenting her experiences in Japan of being completely ignored by the male population. It's interesting that the string of thought seems to be a lot of Japanese men will see a western woman as way out of their league and so won't even try to converse with them. The article was actually articulated and written well. I think the dumb part is relying so much of your sense of self-worth on how men view you, but I think we all get heavily influenced by the opinions of the people around us. It's hard getting brutally ignored.

She sounds like a neckbeard complaining about the friendzone, except gender flipped.

In a western view, she might be just a girl that can't get any score. But, I've been to Japan, There's a lot of really shy man. That's why being called an otaku is an insult. Heck, there's also a school dedicated to make otaku student (from middle school to high school) to be a charismatic and conversationalist person. I can't say the name of the school for private reason. But, yeah the kids that studied there are geniuses. When I was there the girls are nice to me and to the other boys, so does the boys are very friendly. But, the Japanese man seem to keep a close distant to my group girls. They said they were afraid to might insulted or make the girls uncomfortable (it's a tradition thing). Is not they don't want to hit to girls, they just to afraid to do it.

do we got anything else we can discuss?

We could talk about this.

The only reason it is on the top is because of /b/ and supposedly /gg/ from 8chan.

I think the fact that these women reduced a grown man to tears over a fucking shirt is pretty damn bad.

So I have a very controversial subject we can discuss

Lets discuss False Rape Accusation

So from what i've seen the only ones who really care about FRA's are MRA's. Which I feel only hurts the feminist movement. When feminist don't address or at least try to call these people out on making these false claims it gives off the perception that feminism is less about equality and more about women>men.

Does anyone else feel this way?

False rape accusations are a common thing that's treated as if it doesn't exist. In America, there seems to be a persecution complex when it comes to crime, especially something as awful as rape. So in most cases, with little to no evidence, the man goes to jail and the woman is asked no further questions. Even if the find out the crime never happened, it is years later. And even if the accuser is cought in their lie, they don't get tried for any crimes. I haven't seen many feminists talk about this. This is from a Time article:

Catherine Comins, assistant dean of student life at Vassar, also sees some value in this loose use of "rape."…Comins argues that men who are unjustly accused can sometimes gain from the experience. "They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration. 'How do I see women?' 'If I didn't violate her, could I have?' 'Do I have the potential to do to her what they say I did?' Those are good questions.

Eh, I don't think it's that big of a deal. There are a lot of people, occasionally you're going to get a few psychos who think they can get attention by making a false rape accusation. That's just numbers. Our legal system is pretty good at catching those nutbars, as evidenced by that very same article which wishes to paint them as an epidemic. On the other hand, the actual rapists who get away with their crimes actually is prevalent to enough to be considered an epidemic and probably indicates something seriously wrong with the culture at large. Don't get me wrong, false rape accusations are horrific, but I think rape culture is much more of a problem.

Honestly, I really dislike that article. I feel like they're cherrypicking for those few instances of insane feminists to help feed the paranoia that's developed that the feminist movement as a whole is anti-men. That's ludicrous. Even those few crazy radicals who are anti-men exist in a culture that is so obscenely geared against them that about the only thing they can do is screech and fling their poo in their little tumblr cages. I'm not afraid of that, I'm amused by it.

Also, if anyone brings it up, the "1 in 5 women will be raped" statistic is false

I want to talk about some laws regarding rape here in the UK, it is pretty bad in my opinion. Here rape is classified as

1-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if--
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
© A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Thus making it impossible for a woman to rape anyone. Men can be accused of raping another man or woman, but a woman cannot rape a man or woman. Instead it is classed as sexual assault if a woman has sex or touches a man or woman sexually without consent.

Rape is life imprisonment.
Sexual Assault can get you 10 years max.

In general the justice system is pretty bad at convicting the right people, and that often means the wrong person gets accused/convicted. Top that with our current culture of the general population assuming an accused person guilty before a verdict is even reached, and yeah, it's not a fun time for those wrongly accused. Still, in cases of false rape accusations it is not the epidemic many people (mostly MRAs) claim it to be. Compared to the number of actual rapists that go free, the number of wrongly accused innocents is small potatoes. I hate to word it like that, but in the world of rape issues that need to be discussed false accusations is very low on the list compared to the many large issues that MRAs and the like tend to ignore. I support treating men and women equally in all situations including rape, but it's hard to sympathize with groups like MRAs that complain about an "epidemic" of false rape accusations when those same people tend to ignore issues like rape reports being ignored/dismissed by the justice system, rape cases being poorly handled, often leading to the rapist going free, and of course good old slut shaming. In short, I do care about issues like this, but in the case of my own personal interest there are much bigger fish to fry.

Sorry if I'm late to the party with this discussion, but about the NYC video, I think it's a valid thing, but the people who made the video were sensationalizing it and trying to make it a million times worse than it really was. For one, it seems like a decent third of the comments were just people basically saying different forms of "have a nice day" or "how are you doing?" which is just being polite and not "harassment" at all. Then there's a second level of yelling which wasn't repeated so it doesn't really count as harassment which these people don't even really know the definition of at all, but still not acceptable because they were along the lines of "Wooo! Dayum! Gimme some o' dat!" There were only two instances of something that could have actually been considered actual harassment by definition which were when the two separate guys followed her around even though it was pretty clear she didn't want to talk besides the fact that she didn't say "no" outright. Otherwise though, it seemed like at the very least a third and probably more than half if you're being realistic of those comments were just polite greetings and nothing more. The way the video is put together makes it seem like they discourage common decency and saying hello to strangers which is pretty counterproductive. Again, I feel like this has been all discussed already, just felt like shoving my own thoughts into the fray because that's what I do.

No problem, I don't mind, at least.

Just to chime in on one little detail, the part where you said "rape cases being poorly handled, often leading to the rapist going free" was incorrect in a particular point in it's assertion. If a person is found by a court of law to be not guilty of rape, they are not a "rapist" they are an accused rapist, and an acquitted one at that. While the justice system is far from perfect, and certainly many guilty people over the years have been found innocent falsely, it is a patently incorrect statement to claim that a person found not guilty of rape is a "rapist" that has gone free, rather than a person claimed to have been a rapist and later found to not be one.

The way our justice system works, a person is innocent until proven guilty, and if they are not proven guilty in a court of law, they are therefore to be considered, for all intents and purposes, innocent. This idea that an accused rapist must be assumed guilty to the point that it is rape culture for one to even be defended in court, as I have heard many people claim, and in fact are still to be assumed guilty even after being found innocent is a problem that does deserve, in my opinion, at least some consideration. Despite the questionable nature of some MRA claims, I believe that, in this case, their concerns are valid.

So do you guys think the bill cosby raped those women.

About the NYC video:

It's on to something, definitely, but it's been exaggerated and I think it's unfair that only men were shown catcalling. Trust me, both genders catcall. I'm a dude and I get unwanted attention from homosexuals and women. It is not fun. The only people you want to find you attractive are those you find attractive. There's a video over here that addresses the issue well for me. I think it's best to complement this with the original video to show that the whole issue isn't about genders at all; it just means there are creeps in public streets which is why it's not a safe place to be.

Now about Shirtstorm, I have a question:
Has anyone actually seen feminazis going on about how “sexist” his shirt is? Because aside from Rose Eveleth and the Verge, I haven’t seen the side everyone’s so angry at. And I mean everybody. It’s like everybody is mad at something but when I ask to point at who the only thing there is a tweet and an article.

Simply:

Responding to TripleA:
It doesn't really matter what we think. Everyone should just stay neutral until it's resolved legally. If he's convicted then he did, if he's not then he didn't.

That said… I believe it's unlikely over a dozen women all decided to baselessly accuse him of rape, plus there was that lawsuit that got settled out of court on the same issue.
I'm not saying that he did or he didn't, only that it deserves an investigation of some type.

True. I'm not believing in anything until actual evidence comes in and thinking you know if he's guilty or not at this point is just arrogant. I don't blame anyone for hoping, but you shouldn't "know" anything.

Another thing, I disagree with what you said about it being unlikely 12 people baselessly accused him. In my opinion, the fact that 12 people accused him makes their case a bit shaky. What celebrity would go around raping everyone they found expecting no consequences? If it ends up that he did rape some women, I doubt it'll be even close to 12. I'm not dismissing the optin though. Also, about the NBC conspiracy thing, as with the actual case, I'm open to the idea and want more evidence since it makes some sense, but it also sounds pretty ridiculous and reeks of tin foil hats.

Yo people, please remember to stay on topic.

Rape allegations, whether real or fake, aren't feminism or what feminism is about. Sure, there might be some links between the two, but they aren't the same topics.

If you wish to discuss things like False Rape Allegations or Bill Cosby, please considering making seperate threads.

Good idea.

I found a Guardian article that I think is exceedingly interesting.
It may be worthwile to make a distinction between feminists and those who abuse of vitriol in the name of it.

The Guardian writer makes some good points. Yes there are much more worthy causes than making an Astronomer cry because you don't like his shirt.

On the other hand, I think she made some mistakes. I thought his shirt was made by a female friend rather than by a company named "Porn Star".

More material for us to discuss.

I'm going to hate this a lot, but I'll watch it.

12 is a lie. Look at the bronies.

Well, in terms of feminism, I want an end to slut shaming and more equal opportunity relationships. I hate seeing some big jock ogling a girl because "Hurr durr I'm le alpha male". That shit needs to stop.
I also would love to see even more female representation. To the point where we don't point it out; it just is there and we don't jump outta our seats saying "Bah gawd itsa gurl!" In terms of culture itself, I'd like to see more women not portrayed as just "beauty."
As for gaming, hell yes, there need to be more female protagonists. There may be a lot, but we need more mainstream female protagonists. You know, on the level of Bayonetta and Zelda, overall just more icons. Same goes for television and cartoons. The sexualization is definitely there and very noticeable, but I'm happy to see that it is either being reduced or balanced with male sexualization (I don't know if that is much better, but I love equal opportunity).
And finally I despise radical feminism. It is one thing to tackle subtle social issues; it is a whole new ballpark to scream them into people's faces and force your ideals down their throat. You can say I'm an egalitarian, or an equalist (Because if there is one thing I loathe seeing, it is prejudice based on race, sexuality, or gender), or some other gender-equal term, but the role of women in society needs to go beyond sex appeal in my eyes.
I've met plenty of strong women over the course of my ongoing life. And I can say none of them were fawning over guys constantly, or exposing their cleavage constantly, or demeaning themselves for males. And I find it admirable and inspirational that society is starting to realize the subtle issues and tackle them accordingly. If feminism is the start, then the movement has my support. As long as no violence ensues, I'd gladly support feminism.

@TripleA:
I actually liked that video, it was straight up about the issues of the gaming community without exaggerating things and actually tried to get people to not be apathetic and try to change their community for the better. Well done, Anita, well done.

The only one I had a complaint with was the one about attending gaming conventions. I feel cosplayers, male or female, have to worry just as much about harassment from strangers. Also, as I believe was said before in this thread, men get catcalled too, although not to the same degree as women are. Still, that's more a point that we should work to stop convention harassment entirely rather than saying "oh it's no big deal cus it happens to other people so let's just not care about it"

@Ultimate fanboy:
I think you misunderstood that point. Men don't have to worry about perpetuating stereotypes by liking ponies. Actually, quite the opposite, they get ridicule for breaking "the norm". This point was talking about women having to worry about getting accused of perpetuating stereotypes by liking casual/girly games. A better parallel would be men worrying about being accused of perpetuating stereotypes by liking violent games.

I think you misunderstood that point. Men don’t have to worry about perpetuating stereotypes by liking ponies. Actually, quite the opposite, they get ridicule for breaking “the norm”.

They made it look like men get no shame when they do things out of "character". Like, at all.

Except they weren't talking about women getting shame for doing things out of character in that particular segment, so how does it relate to men not getting shamed for being out of character?

They were talking about how men can say they like out of place things while women can't, which is untrue.

I found this post in a YouTube comment section (it was taken from Tumblr I'm guessing though) and it described many things in a way not many people could. I love this post and I just needed to share it here:

Women being encouraged to show off their bodies for media, and images of fake (created images) women being scantly-clad is not part of the patriarchy. Its actually a direct result of second-wave feminism.Please stop saying its about men being sexist. I'll explain.

After the first wave of feminism and women's suffrage (before and directly after the right to vote) women focused on gaining legal rights and pushing away the image of being property for the husband, but rather a companion. This was a slow process, and still perpetuated the idea of women's roles in the household and duties of motherhood before careers. They all, however, had their rights, despite being extremely prejudiced against as housekeepers and child bearers.
By the 60s second-wave feminism popped up. This is where women are trying to shake the motherhood stigma. Women began to focus on micro politics with all their voting and free speech abilities. They discussed the role of women and the roles of gender (such as lesbians, or wives, and so on and so forth). They talked about female body shame. This did away with a lot of modesty laws in the US (such as skirt length, how much skin you were allowed to show in public) for women. Bathing suits became skimpier and skimpier, and so did women's casual dress. Women displayed on television and other media were not so strictly regulated. And then there was porn. Real people, naked women, porn. This was not a bad thing. Women spoke of sex positivity and allowing women to own their autonomy and sexuality fully without prejudice and double standards.

Of course, this could not please everyone. Feminism, by the end of the second wave, had delved so deeply into micro-politics that the ideology of the movement differed from person to person, depending on how they were brought up. Feminism, empowering women, became a show of "who is more right" rather than "this is equality, this is freedom.". Differences in opinions shook the movement from within like abortion, porn, sexuality, gender-roles, and so on. Porn being the most relevant. The sexual liberation of women had had an adverse affect on our culture. Women were glorified as beautiful beings and posted naked everywhere (as seen today). Their bodies sold things easily and everyone wanted to look. It was a luxury, something the American people were not able to see very often before with minor exceptions. Porn, by the 80s, was so large and so invasive, some women were starting to shun away from sexual liberation. Intra-feminism was at war. Literally. The movement was called the "Feminist Sex War" and it lead to the third wave feminism starting in the 90s. This covered quite a few topics, but to get to the point I am trying to make here:

Anti-porn feminist would say that such images made women sex objects and less than people. This causes sexism against women, different than old sexism, and violence against the everyday woman. Sex positive feminist said that porn and images of nude women was sexual liberation. That it was displaying ownership over her whole autonomy. It was her permission and her body to show if she wanted to. And it gives NO ONE permission to cause violence against her.

Ironically, should the patriarchy have ANYTHING to do with any of this, female nudity would never be displayed because women are property under patriarchy. Not people with rights and opinions and bodies.

This is why people get confused when you say, "don't tell women what to wear, tell boys to stop raping." (and i wont go into the sexism in that, today at least) and then turn around and say, "These women in video games, and media, real and fake, are being pornographic and sexually objectifying towards women. This causes violence and sexism. This is bad, and does not represent women, and should be removed or changed."

You cannot, by definition, be both sex positive and anti-porn. I know how feminists love to cling to definitions. Please stop trying to blame men for the sexism we caused ourselves. You cannot police male sexuality. Men are attracted to women. They did not force anyone to be nude or "objectify" themselves.

As for me, and how I feel about female sexual objectification:
Objectification is a state of mind, caused and done only by the observer. You can personify something, or you can objectify something. But that is all you. It is the perpetrator of violence, and the anti-porn individuals that cause objectification. Not expression. I am Sex Positive, completely, and without question.
Learn your history, bitches.

"You cannot, by definition, be both sex positive and anti-porn"

How, exactly?

If you believe women sould be able to use their sexuality as they please and think porn is immoral and sexist, is that not hypocritical?

No, that's mistaking them as thinking porn is inherently immoral and sexist. Most people don't have problems with the female actresses, but the porn companies (and some blame the viewers too). They don't care about the individual porn videos, they are concerned with the fact that, in thier eyes, the porn industry caters to almost solely men and that the sex they show isn't "real sex" but they think that it is this unrealistic males fantasy of sex.

@Feminist Frequency Vid:
Is Fem Freq even credible anymore? There's a considerable amount of people even on Tumblr who dislike Anita and her series. One particular post on Tumblr (can't find it on my blog,) that actually spread like wildfire and I think seals the deal that Fem Freq can't be all that credible is about a tweet by Anita regarding the character Bayonetta from the game of the same name.

"Everything about Bayonetta's design, mechanics and characterization is created specifically for the sexual pleasure of straight male gamers."

Basically the post raised the fact that the character designer of Bayonetta is Mari Shimazaki, a woman. A simple Wikipedia search will tell you that. Moreover, Bayonetta is Shimazaki's favorite character, and it was her idea to give Bayonetta the slender figure and long limbs. There were only three factors Bayonetta must have for Kamiya, the actual creator of the concept, to accept the design, and none of them are sexual at all. Source with more info here. How could have Anita missed that?

@Sam's youtube/tumblr comment:
Without malice, pro-sex all the way for guys and girls. So long as its safe and with consent.

@Spider-bytes
If most people didn't have problems with the women in the adult entertainment industry, prostitutes and 'sluts' wouldn't have such bad reps.

Interestingly, the porn industry is actually trying to make women friendly porn a big thing, according to this article. This is done by having women directors call the shots. The female-friendly approach hasn't boomed, unfortunately. Either the films aren't good enough and porn really is just a male thing kind of like how only women can get so entrenched into otome games, or that women have been brainwashed porn is gross so much that the new female friendly films don't have much followers. Now, according to my microeconomics if it's any reliable, since corporations are soulless hiveminds that calculate risk, minimize cost and maximize profit, the porn industry won't hold onto the female directors too fondly since they're inefficient laborers when it comes to raking up the views. They're gonna have to be laid off eventually; hiring male directors (at the same wage as the female directors,) that know how to keep men (a large majority of the viewers,) entertained rather than female directors that have a small audience is the decision that makes the most economic sense since it maximizes profit. So in short, according to my 'oh-so-professional' microeconomic analysis, if you ever wondered why the female friendly porn experiment isn't doing so well and female directors are a rarity in the industry, it's technically the fault of the men who view porn and women who don't view porn, since firms aren't prejudiced against anything except by how much profit they make.

@PKMN Trainer Trollanort:

I agree with your post apart from one thing – radical feminists don't necessarily scream into people’s faces and force their ideals down people's throats. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, radical feminism is a specific ideology, it's not just a synonym for any feminist that's extreme (although they can overlap). There are radical feminists who are perfectly nice people, they just have a radical view on how to achieve equality for women.

@Ultimate Fan Boy:

They were talking about how men can say they like out of place things while women can’t, which is untrue.

No, they weren't – you misunderstood what they're saying. They said women can't do things that's in place and expected of them (e.g. liking casual games) without it being seen as supporting stereotypes about their gender. A man could do something expected of him (e.g. liking hardcore games) or not necessarily expected of him (e.g. liking casual games) without it being seen as supporting a stereotype about his gender.

@Sam's quote:

This is why people get confused when you say, “don’t tell women what to wear, tell boys to stop raping.” (and i wont go into the sexism in that, today at least) and then turn around and say, “These women in video games, and media, real and fake, are being pornographic and sexually objectifying towards women. This causes violence and sexism. This is bad, and does not represent women, and should be removed or changed.”

You cannot, by definition, be both sex positive and anti-porn. I know how feminists love to cling to definitions. Please stop trying to blame men for the sexism we caused ourselves. You cannot police male sexuality. Men are attracted to women. They did not force anyone to be nude or “objectify” themselves.

The problem with this is being sexual =/= sexual objectification. Basically, a woman autonomously expressing her own sexuality is a different thing to women's bodies being used as objects to titillate other people. In the case of fictional media, characters are created and perform actions based on what the maker wants them to be and do, so if they decide to sexualize one of their characters then that is kinda forcing the character to be such. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you can't really compare that to an actual real thinking person deciding to express themselves, and it's not contradictory to be in favour of one thing and not the other.

Also, men aren't all attracted to women. Heteronormative, much? :|

@Onion Syrup:

That wasn't really @ the Feminist Frequency Vid; you didn't say anything relevant to it so isn't that more @ Feminist Frequency's Existence In General? It's also rather spurious to say "this person said this one thing I think is incorrect, therefore they and any projects they are involved in automatically have no credibility".

>The problem with this is being sexual =/= sexual objectification. Basically, a woman autonomously expressing her own sexuality is a different thing to women’s bodies being used as objects to titillate other people.

Explain.

You don't have to quote a whole wall of text just to give a one word response to a small part of said text. You can just type the users name in and/or copy/paste the one part you are responding to

I'm terrible at formatting, sorry.

You don’t have to quote him about his post. You can just go to his profile and message him. Or at least end up staying on topic.

>The problem with this is being sexual =/= sexual objectification. Basically, a woman autonomously expressing her own sexuality is a different thing to women’s bodies being used as objects to titillate other people.

Explain

What I think Twee is getting at is that in porn, actors and actresses aren't expressing their sexuality, but instead are acting and are preforming sex acts etc. That they aren't enjoying but are paid to do and it is just being used to get guys going. What this means is that they are shown in a way in which they are being treated like an object, not like a human being. The point is that is supposedly the case with most porn videos.

You don’t have to quote him about his post. You can just go to his profile and message him. Or at least end up staying on topic.

>The problem with this is being sexual =/= sexual objectification. Basically, a woman autonomously expressing her own sexuality is a different thing to women’s bodies being used as objects to titillate other people.

Explain

What I think Twee is getting at is that in porn, actors and actresses aren't expressing their sexuality, but instead are acting and are preforming sex acts etc. That they aren't enjoying but are paid to do and it is just being used to get guys going. What this means is that they are shown in a way in which they are being treated like an object, not like a human being. The point is that is supposedly the case with most porn videos.