Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

… as i type this messege, innocent arabs in gaza are being lyched, pulled out of their cars and beaten to death.
grenades are being thrown at ambulances
jews set fire to their arabic neighbours' properties
and tel aviv launching airstrikes that end up killing way more than 7 people already, many of which are women and children
not to mention these people have a long history of war crimes

here's just 1 example of the shit happening in your country now –
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57053074

all of this is happening in cities were jews and arabs used to coexist for decades .we lived togther, treated them as equals, sought to cooperate with them whenever possible.
but it turns out they hated us this entire time and were just waiting for a good opprtunity to strike.
this is the 1929 bloody riots all over again. nothing changed. nothing.
whatever your positiion on the whole occupation conflict is, even if for the sake of the argument my country really was an oppressive apartheid state -
the point is that Israeli forces aren't fighting israeli police or army, they aren't attacking govrment buildings, they are specifially targeting random innocent people, hospitals and the arabs who live close to them. this is unforgivable
how the hell do you think you can have peace with people who brutally murder their neighbors just for their ethnicity.

I'm not up to speed with the things that go on between Israel and Palestinians but I'll say this: living peacefully for good would require both parties to not kill each other. This wouldn't just go for the Palestinians throwing molotovs at buses while Arabs setting fire to the homes of Jewish neighbors, it'll require the Israelis to not kill Palestinians, especially when considering what the Israeli forces are doing and what you get from Israeli mobs who think there's nothing wrong with lynching and beating to death Palestinians.

In fact, let me just add to what I said: why do you think the Palestianians would have things like throwing molotovs and burning homes? Do you think they just hate the Jews right off the bat? I mean yeah, you do have anti-Semites and all but with how the Israeli government acts and treats the Palestinians, the actions of said government and how they treat Palestinians will no doubt foster seeds of hate and hostility.

"do you think they hate the jews right off the bat?"
yes. yes they do.

all these bloody pogroms were perpetrated by israeli citizens who had full state rights and benefits with none of the drawbacks of the jewish citizens like compulsory a 3 year military service.

they were not oppressed in any way, they all had jewish neighbors, coworkers and friends.
and yet despite all of this they still decided to try murdering their jewish neighbors. they openly screamed "Itbah al Yahud" – sloughter the jews.
they did all this a whole week before the recent war with gaza.

how do you explain this other than blind fanatical hatred? if they really hated the actions of our israeli government they would have targeted government facilities and police.
but instead they intentionally target weak, unarmed jews, and vandalize everything that represents jews like synagogues and and jewish schools.

and again, all of these rioters had good lives and were not discriminated in any way, they were full citizens of israel and no one suspected their capacity for violence until they turned into bloodthirsty mobs.
this is exactly like in 1929, arab rioters massacred and expelled their jewish neighbors and former friends even though said jews treated them with the utmost respect.
it is now more obvious that they blindly hate us, they always blindly hated us and its foolish to assume they will ever stop hating us.

all the lynching against arabs you mentioned happened as a direct reaction to all the riots i mentioned above, its not mutual hatred. if the palestinians stopped hating us, there would be peace on that very same day. just like israel made peace with many other arab nations

you cynically twisted my words and completely belittled my factual claims and statements. what a disgusting attitude, i expected more from a mod.

ill tackle your cynical counter points one-by-one

1) all the israeli crimes you brought up happened AFTER the arab pogroms that set whole cities on fire, they were a REACTION. one side – the arabs, are clearly the aggressor that started this violence wave. and the other side – the jews, are clearly retaliating. sure, attacking innocent arabs is 100% wrong and i fully condemn it, but i also realize its a natural reaction when people see their country burn.
did you really think everyone will just sit tight and react calmly to the sight of their friends colleagues being murdered in the streets and their homes being set on fire?

2) your accusations of israeli bombardment of gaza being unjustified are simply ignorant and malicious.
hundreds of rockets were launched from gaza, targeted at population centers without any warning or provocation, some of them hit the israeli capitol, there is not a single nation on earth or the universe for that matter, that will tolerate the bombardment of its cities, let alone its capitol. if mexico suddenly fired rockets at american cities it would turn into a crater on the very following day and no one would question it. why the hell is self defense a crime when jews do it?

3) all of the civilian casualties in gaza are a direct result of militants intentionally placing their weapons and ammo inside dense residential areas so that israel will be afraid of causing collateral damage from destroying them.
but again, according to you its a crime for jews to defend themselves so you dont care.

4) your claims that IDF intentionally kills innocent civilians are blatant, disgusting bullshit, and you should be ashamed of perpetuating such lies.

Both parties here have consistently acted in uncompromising and selfish ways for all their talk about "religious values" so they really arent that different imo.

you cynically twisted my words and completely belittled my factual claims and statements. what a disgusting attitude, i expected more from a mod.

I see no factual claims in your post. You may want to double check that your links and images are properly embedded. Feel free to refer to the KYM guide to textile for more information.

---

More importantly, I think you should reconsider your strategy of "any argument I don't like is a lie". The majority of KYM's users hail from developed western countries, and are much more receptive to arguments regarding democracy, equality, and logic or reasoning (especially given Israel's poor reputation in the west). You can create more effective arguments by taking these into account, like so:

The IDF absolutely targets civilians, and their claims to the contrary are incriminating in their own right. Having a 40+% civilian casualty rate is somewhere between "criminally incompetent" and "lmao you're targeting civilians".

you tell me to stop treating any argument i dont like as a lie and then immediately follow up with blatant lies.

IDF does NOT target civilians. and your link trying to prove to the contrary is a detailed list of assassination against TERRORISTS. not random civilians.
actual hamas leaders who run their entire operations, if you consider their assassinations to be murder of innocent civilians you are beyond hopeless.

having 40%+ civilian death rate is the direct result of gazan terrorists fronting all their operations inside dense population centers as well as schools and hospitals to make sure every israeli retaliation will cause as many civilian deaths as posible.
i already said this but you chose to completely ignore that.

here's the latest example of this: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/HJdsLpi00d#autoplay
after the recent israel bombing all the offensive tunnels that were built under the streets are fully visible.

also, this wasn't the topic my thread. the topic is about the bloody pogroms that happen inside israeli cities, that are perpetrated by israeli citizens. israeli-arabs who lived together with us for decades who had equal rights and state benefits. people we all thought we could legitimately coexist with. only to wake up to them burning our homes and murdering our young and elderly in the streets
examplr like this: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/SkTLdKY0000#autoplay
this: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/H1etXuLO00?utm_source=Taboola_internal&utm_medium=organic
and this: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/HyVI8MYOd

yes israelis did similar things but it was after a WEEK of nonestop rioting and lynching. people snapped and demanded retribution especailly considering how lackluster the police response is because the police is afraid of clashing with these rioters. and yet you frame as though the israelis started it all out of pure malice.

i wanna see how you'd react if for example, your whole american city would be set on fire by mexcian rioters who all screamed "death to america" yeah you would be so calm and resolute.

@no!!
the position of "both sides are wrong" is quaint and cute, but it all stems from a complete lack of understanding and knowledge of this conflict.
if you'd actually read unbiased news sources you will see beyond any doubt that the aggressors were the palestinians and that israeli tried everything it could to live peacefull with them only to be stabbed in the back for every single attempt.

just take a look at the links i previously posted. educated israeli arab citizens assault their neighbors and former friends just because they are jews and destroy jewish monuments and facitilies. these are not protests against oppression, these are PORGROMS
just like in 1929 when arabs murdered their jewish neighbors and in 1936 and in 1939 and in 1947, and so on and so forth

hey I am more with Israel than Palestine I just dont think either one is …you know… good

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israel-is-not-a-democracy/

First, Israel does not have a Constitution and is unable to draft one since the concept of a “Jewish State” contradicts democratic principles of pluralism, secularism and equal rights.

Second, Israel does not separate religion and government. It routinely passes religious laws on issues of family, marriage, divorce and immigration to prevent non-Jews from immigrating or to remain in the country in order to give Jews priority.

Third, Israel does not give most of the Palestinians the right to vote. It controls the West Bank and Gaza but does not recognize the Palestinians population there as citizens. The argument that they are not part of Israel does not wash any longer in light of over 50 years occupation and a massive settlement project.

Fourth, Israel does not separate between the executive and the legislative branch. All of its government ministers including the Prime Ministers are also members of the legislative branch. This dual capacity violates separation of power, a prerequisite of a functioning democracy.

Fifth, Israel does not have an independent supreme court. The controlling party (thus the prime minister) has significant influence in appointing supreme court judges.

And with how Netanyahu makes the decisions and all or at the very least opens his mouth on issues such as how he thinks or deals with the Palestinians, it really reinforces the idea of one seeing him as no better than whatever Palestinian individuals or groups who think the Jews would have to be killed and thinking Hitler did no wrong.

As I mentioned, I'm not up to speed with the conflicts between Israel and Palestine, I have no idea about the groups in this beyond just hearing the name "HAMAS" and Netanyahu but I will say that as far as it all goes, I'm not gonna be surprised at the flames being fanned. You got Israelis who think the Palestinians are all anti-Semites out to kill them thanks to propaganda and the like that they think it's justified to bomb them and you got Palestinians who end up believing the Israelis are all evil thanks to propaganda and all the moves made by the Israeli government. While this does go "both sides" I won't be surprised if much of the hatred from the latter wouldn't of been big if the former didn't make a lot of moves like displacing Palestinians and bombing them.

@SicklyVivian

sorry to burst your bubble of neutrality but the palestinians clearly are anti-semites out to kill us
just look at what is happening in the streets right now. nothing has changed since i started this thread a few days ago.
palestinian mobs who i repeat: ALL ISRAELI CITIZENS WITH EQUAL RIGHTS AND GAIN STATE BENEFITS started lynching jewish civilians, destroy synagogues and set fire to their neighbor's homes.
if they were the so-called oppressed none-citizen palestinians in the west bank you could argue they are fighting against oppression and unequal treatment and thats how they vent their rage against would be invaders

but that is not the case. for 70 years these israeli-palestinians lived and prospered in mixed cities throughout israel, and the jews consdiered them as partners and friends.
and now these partners and friends our outside in the streets forming violent mobs with the explicit intent of killing jews and destryoing their homes. it is legitimately unsafe for jews to go out of their homes.

this is the main issue im talking about. the bomings in/from gaza are completely irrelevant to this topic.
fact is gaza started shooting rockets AFTER these arab pogroms started.

here are a few examples of what's been happening
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/SyD500xqL00?
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/S1RF7JeYO
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/HJuzNleYd
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/BJLpVhR0000

and yes, im fully aware there are jewish extremist that lyched palesinians and i fully condemn them, we also must be aware that these were retaliations and revenge when the police is seemingly not doing anything.
one side is clearly the aggressor.

@Steve
what you said is mostly true. yes israel has quite a few problems, most of them stemming from demands of orthodox jews there are constant legislative struggles against these.
but saying that these problems make israel a none-democratic state is a gross exaggeration. especially considering you made a bunch of errors in your statements.

Palestinians do have the right to vote. those who live in the west bank can have an autonomy and their vote is cast there. said Palestinian autonomy is almost completely independent

dual capacity doesn't invalidate seperation of power because the ministers still need the full support of the Knesset members (israeli congress) in order to pass their laws and these laws can easily be rejected if they dont have enough votes.
ministers cant vote in the knesset as well, all they can do is propose new laws.

and finally, and most importantly, israeli supreme court is FULLY 100% INDEPENDENT. it stopped many government decisions and law legislations in the past and is very unpopular for it as its considered a left-wing bastion.

I am just gonna leave these here

I would say "yikes" but i believe that would be an understatement to say the least

image broke

Not in my screen

Are they still broken for you?

The business model of Hamas since it's take over of Gaza is simple, and barbaric. They are in the business of victimhood. Victimhood means that all these various NGOs like Islamic Relief Worldwide who are now banned in some European nations like Germany. Despite their own protests Islamic Relief Worldwide has had numerous problems with their leadership outright praising Hamas, calling Israel it's enemy. Another example is the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known as the IHH, a prominent fundraiser for Hamas in Turkey . This group, also, was banned in Germany for funneling money to Hamas.

When the Europeans became increasingly aware of their role in funding Hamas, even indirectly, they made a major change in December of 2019, about how funding for Palestinian NGO's would function. Not surprisingly the Palestinian Non-Governmental Organizations network refused new terms added by the European Union in 2019, which obligate Palestinian institutions to ensure that no beneficiaries of their projects or programs are affiliated with groups listed on the European Union’s terrorist organizations list.

Is it no wonder then that the top brass of Hamas live in absolute luxury, and it's leader doesn't even live in Gaza, but lives in luxurious hotels in Turkey or Qatar?

The IDF recognized that this is the strategy that Hamas pursues. One of the reasons for the Iron Dome system is to create a defense where Israel doesn't have to respond with rocket barrages, whenever someone in Gaza launches rockets into them. This has been more or less successful, but it has an Achilles heel; there is a brief time when the system has to be reloaded, and when it is reloaded, that's when Hamas rockets actually land. I.e. Overwhelm Iron Dome, and you can pierce through – which is exactly what happened in this round of fighting.

>Doeoeod
So yes, let's discuss the 40% civilian casualty rate. First you're using the numbers out of B'Tselem an NGO from Israel that has been highly critical of the IDF, and has been accused of mixing combatants and civilians in the same category, but specifically, the 40% casualty rate is referenced to the conflicts Israel had from 2000-2011, which by the way, was also the beginning of the second Intifada. Indeed, according to Amos Harel a journalist for Haaretz , in 2002 and 2003, the ratio was 1:1, meaning one civilian killed for every target killed. Harel called this period "the dark days" because of the relatively high civilian death toll as compared to later years. He attributed this to an Israeli Air Force practice of attacking targets even when they were located in densely populated areas. While there were always safety rules, argued Harel, these were "bent" at times in view of the target's importance. According to Harel, the civilian casualty ratio dropped steeply to 1:28 in late 2005, meaning one civilian killed for every 28 targets killed. Harel credited this drop to the new IAF chief Eliezer Shkedi's policies. The ratio rose again in 2006 to 1:10, a fact that Harel blamed on "several IAF mishaps". However, in 2007 and 2008 the ratio dropped to a level of less than 1:30, or 2–3 percent of the total casualties being civilian.

As I point out, it is in the interest of Hamas, they need civilian casualties because it's perfect photographs to show to the guilt-ridden Western world, but especially the Europeans, where much of Hamas funding comes from. When talking about casualties out of this conflict, we are entirely reliant on the Gaza Health Ministry which is entirely controlled by Hamas. As far as I know there are no independent observers making an assessment of the casualties, whether the GHM is accurate or not. Furthermore, as much as 20% of all missiles launched out of Gaza…end up falling in Gaza – how many civilians or even militants are killed in this fashion? Another question that has no actual answer. I re-iterate. It is in the best interest of Hamas to see as many civilian casualties – especially the most photogenic ones – become "martyred" for the cause.

In this recent most conflict Hamas, under the support of weapons support from Iran has been able to breach the achilles heel of the Iron Dome. It has also built an extensive metro of tunnels that it used to smuggle in weapons.

This is why Hamas stations it's rocket sites, and it's military depots in civilian areas. Even the UNRWA was upset that Hamas would use UNRWA to store military weapons in it. Even after 2014, this practice hasn't ended.

Watch every video that has been coming out on social media about how Israel strikes their targets. First they use door knockers, giving the civilians almost an hour to escape and get out, before they bomb the target. Then look at how the bombs hit, they are precise and often take down just the building itself, with minimal collateral damage. The sheer amount of firepower that is being used by IDF unto Gaza, the way it is currently being used, compared to the supposed casualty rate – when compared to any other damn war clearly shows restraint. If this was any other nation – including the Europeans or Americans, the entire situation would be far worse.

And so I ask you this. When Hamas launches a barrage of missiles – supported by Iran, that overwhelm the Iron Dome system, how exactly should the Israelis respond? When a power plant in Israel is destroyed, critical infrastructure and lives are lost, how should it respond? What exactly is "proportionality" when one side does everything it can to defend it's citizens, and the other prefers it's citizens dead for propaganda purposes? Assuming you'd say there should be a response, how would you make the response different? How would you determine which targets have civilians and which do not – without having to put boots on the ground which has been disastrous for casualty rates before? How would your country respond in the same situation?

yes.

Either way this is going to get ugly…

Israel had reopened the passages into the Strip earlier in the day to let in badly needed fuel, medical equipment.

The move was hailed by the United Nations in light of the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza, whose sole power plant has been rationing fuel and cutting electricity service to the beleaguered enclave.

While the crossings were opened, terrorists in the Strip launched a large mortar barrage across the border, reportedly firing dozens of shells throughout the area, including at Kerem Shalom and Erez.

As a result, a 19-year-old soldier was hurt by mortar fire while assisting in transfer of aid at Gaza crossing. Israel has closed the reopened passages again following the attack.

This is who Israel is dealing with. Tell me again why Hamas isn't directly benefiting from the misery of the Gazan people.

i highly appriciate that this debate is now more balanced but its not the topic i wanted to talk about.

the war in gaza will never end and we all know that. its a never-ending cycle because hamas will always vitimize the palestinian people as chewbunny explained well
and IDF will never destroy hamas because it fears an even more extreme organization will fill the vaccume.

the main reason i made the thread is because of the street violence. arabs that used to live with jews for devades now suddenly try to murder them in the streets.
how will the jews and arabs will be able to coexist in mixed cities like Haifa, Lod and Akko?
as of the time of writing this post, a large number of arabs have also started a general strike in protest of the al-aqsa and sheikh jarrah incidents.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/BJt9jrWY00

notice that they are not proesting against what is happening in gaza. this means this protest is basically showing solidarity and support for all these pogroms and bloody riots.
so far there was only ONE palestnian politician that explicitly condmened these riots and he later came under very heavy criticsm for it.

so after all of this how can jews and arabs coexist when one side clearly shows it wants to destroy the other?

@JollyJew
I am not as pessimistic as you.
The war in Gaza will end when Hamas is no longer in control or power in Gaza. I am not 100% certain that the IDF will never destroy Hamas out of fear that a more extreme organization will fill the vacuum, I think the bigger issue for IDF is that Hamas is so deeply entrenched, militaristically, that any realistic attempt to out them would be an extremely casualty-high move. Urban warfare is one of the most violent, devastating, and civilian-casualty involved style of warfare, and it would serve neither the Israelis or the Gazans any good for such to occur. Oh absolutely Hamas would love a ground invasion – it's why they built those tunnels – because they know the streets like the back of their hand, they would take massive toll on the Israelis, and they know it.

The largest tragedy for the Palestinians is a tendency to rely on horrendous leadership. Although not as popular as it once was Hamas tends to violently silence it's critics in Gaza. But if elections…

Actually this is something I will bring up in this thread because I think it's the bigger picture context.
Elections. Elections E L E C T I O N S.

In Autumn of 2020, the Abraham Accords were signed. For the Palestinians and the Palestinian cause this was the loudest wake up call they had in at least 2 decades. For us in the world it was a welcome sight of seeing normalization of Israel and it's Arab neighbors…but for the Palestinians it was a disaster. For many decades any normalization with the Arab world was effectively cock-blocked by the I/P issue. The Palestinian leadership knew this and used it as leverage. When it became evident that they are no longer the road-block to normalization, it meant that their biggest tool of negotiating leverage was obliterated.

In January of 2021, days before the Inauguration of President Joe Biden, Abbas declares that, after 15 years of rule, he will allow elections. The Legislative Polls will take place in…May of 2021. Keep this in mind.
As the weeks progressed and the two major parties began to assess their campaigns, it became evidently clear that Hamas was a unified party, and Fatah was not. Both parties share historic lows of popularity (with Hamas having a slight edge), which means any victory would mean that they won't hold the majority of popularity. As polling data came out it became clear that Hamas may actually win the election and oust Abbas.

On April 29th, 2021, West Bank PA Abbas realizing that he may lose, makes a declaration. "Palestinian elections in 15 years will be delayed, citing a dispute with Israel to call off a vote in which his fractured Fatah party was expected to suffer another embarrassing defeat to the Hamas militant group." Specifically, he wants it so that East Jerusalem can participate – effectively putting a lot of political pressure on Israel. Hamas, in turn, responds calling it a "coup". This kind of is beneficial to Israel, and the Western World, because the idea that the West Bank and Gaza would fall into the hands of Hamas would be disastrous to say the least.

And so we come into April/May. And a few correlating major issues came up.
Let's begin with everyone's favorite app…TikTok an emergent form of viral videos out of TikTok began to appear where groups of Arabs assaulting's and harassing orthodox Jews. In response to this a group of far-right Israeli youths came out on the streets to harass and tangle with Arabs. of course, such violence spirals out of control when coming into a holy week for Muslims, Ramadan.

The second issue, and the one, everyone seems to be fixated on, without at all understanding the context, is the Sheikh Jarrah which is the eviction of 13 families out of the East Jerusalem neighborhood. This is, effectively, a long running property-rights issue stemming from the 1940s. To summarize: At the end of the war with Israel in 1948, Jordan had control of many East Jerusalem neighborhoods including Sheikh Jarrah, which was largely a Jewish community. The Jews abandoned the property, and fled to Israel. In the 50s the Jordanians built on the property. But the Israelis recaptured the neighborhood during the 1967 war, and annexed the East Jerusalem territory. Since the 70s there have been some Israeli settlers that argued that the property rightfully belongs to them. The settlers say they have a legal right to the land based on an Israeli law that permits Jews to recover property abandoned during the war in 1948. Such a law does not apply to Palestinians (I am bolding this because, I am going to be honest, I sincerely think that this is a legitimate issue to protest, and I side with the Palestinians on this one for sure – abandon your property and it is no longer yours).

The third issue, which stemmed from these two, is the massive riots that occured at the end of Ramadan, and Jerusalem Day, which resulted in massive police clashes on al-Aqsa Mosque (Dome of the Rock). This is too much of a complex issue for me to really comment on, as I do not know what the procedures of Israeli police is in such a situation.

Now add all of this together:
Elections after 15 years where Hamas may have a chance to win. The elections are suspended/postponed, because Hamas may win. At the same time, 3 major flare ups of violence, rioting, and a major supreme court case (in Israel), occur at the same time. What does it equal?
A perfect opportunity for Hamas to present themselves as the champions of the Palestinian cause, when Fatah is divided and ineffectual. This would present them in a good light, while, simultaneously, putting pressure on Abbas to reopen the elections. At the same time, Hamas has had 7 years of preparing and arms stocking. What an opportunity for a show of force and decisive action during such a volatile time. And so the barrage of rockets was launched – which overwhelmed the Iron Dome system and hit certain major population centers in Tel Aviv but also a power plant, and gas pipeline.

The Israelis decided to retaliate.
~~~~~
At the same time as all this is happening the Israelis are also bracing for a 5th round of elections, with Bibi potentially being outed – and facing criminal charges for corruption. I am quite sure that a part of the ferocity of the response from the Israelis is the desire for Bibi to build a bit good will before he may be ousted, and facing major corruption charges. But on top of that, if he suspects he is going out soon, might as well go out in glory, because the way International Criminal system works (if it ever does) is countries are not prosecuted – individuals are. Whatever the fallout from the retaliation that Israel will face will fall unto Bibi, who is already leaving.

One of my suspicions as to why the US, with the Biden administration (who is not particularly friendly with Bibi Netanyahu) is unwilling to force Israel into a ceasefire now, is that the US understands the bigger picture. I think what is happening, what is really happening, is that the Israelis, under Bibi, is crippling the entire infrastructure of Hamas to it's core, devastating as much as it can. This will make it unable to be effective if elections resume, and giving a major edge to Fatah to win the upcoming Elections. This is why Israel struck Hamas banks, it's intelligence networks, it's underground tunnels, etc. It's crippling Hamas. Which is, consequently, why Hamas is desperately calling for a ceasefire.

A week ago I predicted that Hamas overplayed their hand. It seems I may be correct.

> how do you explain this other than blind fanatical hatred? if they really hated the actions of our israeli government they would have targeted government facilities and police.
but instead they intentionally target weak, unarmed jews, and vandalize everything that represents jews like synagogues and and jewish schools.

The kind of person stupid enough to do this thing in the first place is also the kind of person who won't understand nuance or targeted attacks.

These people really do hate the Israeli government, but they take it out on Israelis. That is how prejudice ends up working. A country does something bad to you, so you treat the people in that country badly.

It's not a matter of blind hatred, frankly, speaking as an Arab. We don't like the israeli government, but a lot of people aren't capable of understanding or distinguishing between the government and the people in it, and assume that the people of said country support the government-which, in their eyes, makes them complicit.

There is legitimate, pervasive, anti-semitism as well, of course. Bigotry thrives in environments like this. But it is not nearly as black and white as you believe. They weren't treated well prior by the Israeli government-so they took it out on israeli citizens. Israel in turn has been antagonizing arabs and taking it out on Palestinian civilians who aren't doing anything because of the actions of Hamas.

Nobody is saying that Israel is not justified in its response in terms of retaliating against Palestine with attacks of its own, but the continuing escalation of rocket strikes is starting to become excessive.

I did hear reports that israel also used white phosphorus, but that just might be twitter being twitter again.

If you frame this in a case of arab aggression, then of course, Israel is responding legitimately. But the thing is that a lot of Israel's stuff stems from comprehensive and systemic flaws in Israel itself-like how its government treats the Palestinians to begin with, which of course creates resentment.

idk why i get downvotes for saying "yes"

the images dont come up on my screen, guys.

Since they just don't show up for you here's the links
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1qiGUGWEAAH-cX?format=jpg&name=900×900

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1qiGSnX0AQCsyL?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1qiGSWX0AIg_ab?format=jpg&name=900×900

There are plenty of people who say Israel is not justified in it's response – largely that's what a lot of the protests tend to be about. And I don't know what "excessive" is here. Do you? What is the line? If the goal is to prevent this from happening again anytime soon, and that necessitates destroying as much of the enemies' capability of launching rockets, where is the line drawn? Has Israel crossed that line? To be honest. I do not know.

I don't frame this as Arab aggression. I frame this specifically as Hamas aggression. And most people are having a damn hard time differentiating the differences between the WB and Gaza, and the governments which rule over either. The way the government treats Palestinians in the WB is different than how the Israeli government responds to Hamas in Gaza. Since Israel doesn't have any presence in Gaza – outside of intelligence. Yes, Gaza is effectively under siege. Yes, it is blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. But let's not kid ourselves as to why that blockade exists in the first place – primarily to make sure that Hamas cannot arm themselves. Now of course it's imperfect, but the intention is justified in the face of continual Hamas aggression.

Which is why I am adamant that the situation in Gaza would radically change if they get rid of Hamas, but they cannot, neither the Palestinian people in Gaza can do this, nor would Israel. Hamas routinely goes after anyone who even tries to normalize relations with Israel. These elections that Abbas called for would have been an interesting situation to see, but his own Fatah party is so disjointed and corrupt neither seems to be a clear winner.

I absolutely understand the resentment that many of the Palestinians, especially in Gaza, feel towards Israel. But what are they expecting to do? If Israel lifts the blockade, and so does Egypt, weapons will pour into Gaza, Hamas will use them, and Israel will retaliate because it has to.

If the activists want this to end they are clearly targeting the wrong party. Israel has it's faults, do not get me wrong, and it's policy – often hypocritical – such as in East Jerusalem right now is grotesque. Those are legitimate things to protest, those are legitimate things to stand behind, and I would stand with them. I do think that Netanyahu deserves to be arrested, and prosecuted for corruption, and I see it as a cynical election game by him effectively shielding himself as much as he can by staying as PM. ALL legitimate issues to bring up, and discuss. But demanding the impossible? Or standing in solidarity with people who literally have it in their ideology to genocide the Jews? How do you honestly see yourself on the left, when you explicitly side with the side that has it in their charter, their own goal to explicitly genocide the Jews? Just because they are "brown"?

This is another thing that I feel the west, especially in America and Canada do too often. Project. Project their own historic grievances, and conflicts, their own domestic issues such as race relations unto the rest of the world. How often have y'all seen this framed as "White Israelis" vs "Brown Palestinians" – when if you actually look the average of the two groups they look almost exactly alike? This isn't about you [the Westerners].

I feel like so much of this conflict remains in limbo is because the world views it from the prism of mid-20th century post-colonialism, and cold war. The obsession with the 1967 "green line", the use of cold war rhetoric and post colonialist emancipatory language. The inability to adapt or evolve any solution beyond what was originally designed literally 30-40 years ago. Without any recognition that we are living in a much different world today.

> How do you honestly see yourself on the left, when you explicitly side with the side that has it in their charter, their own goal to explicitly genocide the Jews? Just because they are "brown"?

I'm not siding with the Palestinians because I don't approve of Hamas, I view them as a menace and a threat.

Like, being very clear, Hamas bad. Hamas very bad. Hamas continues to perpetuate the cycle of victimhood so that they can continually arm themselves and motivate Palestinians to attack Israel. But, as you said, I also view Israel as grievously corrupt and Netnyahu as a piece of shit, and I do view the means by which Israel is conducting its strikes and the degree of its response to be disproportionate. Yes, they are better than Hamas, which is indiscriminately bombing Israel, but they're not the blameless defenders in this that you view it as, and i'm certainly not viewing it as a lens of 'white vs brown', and anyone who tries to view it as 'white people vs brown people' is stupid.

The fact is that Israel is really quite bad at making efforts to de-escalate or to treat Palestinians properly, and the degree of their retaliation is ridiculous.

> If the goal is to prevent this from happening again anytime soon, and that necessitates destroying as much of the enemies' capability of launching rockets, where is the line drawn? Has Israel crossed that line? To be honest. I do not know.

You see, there's a reason why there are always significant objections when it comes to a response that's basically 'bomb them until the sand glows.' If you're going to cripple the enemy infrastructure, this comes at the cost of catastrophically worsened relations and severe damage to infrastructure. Because of Israel's airstrike campaign, they've blasted refugee camps, hospitals, houses of those suspected in participating even in riots…they don't operate quite like the US does when it comes to selective targets.

Yes, Hamas stores weapons in those areas as well, but the problem is not just Hamas. Israel's retaliation is overzealous and severe compared to the damage the rockets from Palestine inflicted. At a certain point, you DO have to respond to aggression with nonaggression and relationship building to undermine Hamas and delegitimize it, rather than feeding into their victimhood narrative by blasting hospitals and schools, because-regardless of if those places have weapons in them-they're also hospitals and schools, and their destruction is a massive incitement against you.

If you go in with the intent to 'destroy the enemy', and you've turned the populace against you, you now have a large amount of displaced people and a country that's economically crippled and now has even more reason to hate you.

Just to be clear, Hamas will never stop hating Israel. It is why they exist. But you can undermine support for them by not feeding into their narrative so much with the responses Israel has taken.

> If Israel lifts the blockade, and so does Egypt, weapons will pour into Gaza, Hamas will use them, and Israel will retaliate because it has to.

The blockade has to stay, but Israel should still be making attempts to deliver necessary supplies to Gaza themselves. And it's not just the blockade, it's simply the degree of retaliation, and the way Palestinians are treated as second class citizens.

Just to be clear, NONE of this excuses-or in any way legitimizes-Hamas. But Israel's response is frankly disproportionate to the amount of damage inflicted.

@aaaa
You bring up some good points and I appreciate the conversation.
If I may ask, what, in your view, is proportionate response? What is based on?

>. At a certain point, you DO have to respond to aggression with nonaggression and relationship building to undermine Hamas and delegitimize it, rather than feeding into their victimhood narrative by blasting hospitals and schools, because-regardless of if those places have weapons in them-they're also hospitals and schools, and their destruction is a massive incitement against you.

That's the point of the Iron Dome – it was designed, partially, to create a system where Israel does not have to respond, and for the most part it didn't have to. There have been many instances of rockets being launched since 2014, but they haven't really amounted to the kind of response we've seen this last round. For example. In 2015, there were 23 rocket attacks out of Gaza unto Israel. No retaliation. 15 in 2016. No retaliation. 35 in 2017, which there was a retaliation leading to … 2 deaths in Gaza. 2018 had a huge uptick in rockets being launched with a limited response that resulted in 13 deaths in Gaza, 10 of which were militants. In 2019, a barrage of rockets were launched which had a response that killed 34 in Gaza, overwhelming militants. In 2020, rockets were being launched by Hamas, with minimal response. We have clear example of minimal response to a barrage of attacks…however, this time around it went far deeper. The rockets used were in the thousands, they reached Tel Aviv, they reached a major population center, and they have destroyed a power station and gas pipeline in Ashkelon, which is not something to just turn a blind eye towards. At this point, what exactly is a proportionate response? If your enemy is improving each year, they are not letting down, they are able to overcome the achilles heel of your defense, what is the proper response, in your opinion?

As far as the US is concerned about as a reference point, no military in the world has gone out of it's way to insure the minimal civilian casualties. We have clear examples of how the US conducts itself during it's wars in Iraq, and Afghanistan, which amounted to thousands if not tens of thousands of dead civilians from US bombings. We have even a larger image of what it was like during the 90s in the Balkans. The 2003 Iraq invasion a lone, resulted in 4300-7300 civilian deaths.

> The rockets used were in the thousands, they reached Tel Aviv, they reached a major population center, and they have destroyed a power station and gas pipeline in Ashkelon, which is not something to just turn a blind eye towards. At this point, what exactly is a proportionate response?

While the damage done there means this is something that can't be ignored, take a look at the damage inflicted. A power station and a gas pipeline, versus Israel's response, which has killed hundreds of people, displaced about 74,000 and demolished 940 homes and multiple schools and hospitals.

It's certainly not something you can turn a blind eye towards, but the problem with dealing with terrorists in major population centers is that you CAN'T respond by destroying all their infrastructure because it destroys the civilian's infrastructure as well and now you have further embittered everyone to the existence of Israel and legitimized Hamas. The degree of resentment against Israel is insane.

If Israel had done things such as, say, condemn the storming of the mosque and apologize for it, that placation could have gone a long way in making amends and helping give ground to Palestinian politicians looking to normalize relations with Israel.

The thing is that honestly, in this situation, you're somewhat correct-I can't imagine it not eventually ending in bloodshed. Hamas is out for war, and people were embittered enough. Had Israel not adopted a policy that functionally made Palestinians second-class citizens and given them rights, it would have felt less like a foreign occupation to them and more like what jolly jew was talking about where palestinians and jews could have lived side by side.

But decades of bad management and diplomatic relations decay lead to the point where the Gaza strip is practically imprisoned and everyone in it feels like Israel is bullying them, because, well, they are-and that feeds into a terrorist mentality. You can't have foreign occupation without the inevitable 'freedom fighters', and Hamas helps legitimize itself and its victimhood mentality by providing aid to Palestinians and doing goodwill missions.

Israel's responses have pretty much been punitive. For every dead Israeli, you get ten dead Palestinians-the fact that from an outsider perspective, they're doing everything they can to reduce civilian casualties doesn't change that they still blow up people's houses on the spot and Palestine has functionally no agency on its own.

With proportionate response, honestly, Israel should have stopped their retaliation after the first day, and avoided hospitals and schools entirely-regardless of the weapons stockpiles there, hospitals and schools should ALWAYS be protected targets. And honestly they should have made efforts before all of this went down to focus on de-escalation, because Netanyahu really…didn't, focus on de-escalation at all.

i open these and nothing loads

You better not be doing this on purpuse

The first Image is a photo of Palestinians with i think a Kite with a nazi swastika painted on it

The second one is a pole with three flags the first and third one are the Palestinian flag the second in the middle is a white one with a swastika on it

The third is from a Twitter account called "FreePalestinan" saying "Dear Hitler we miss you"

im not but i believe these images exist somewhere though, yes.

Yes

Here --> https://mobile.twitter.com/HLeivaditis/status/1394605426847715329

@aaaaaaa

>which has killed hundreds of people, displaced about 74,000 and demolished 940 homes and multiple schools and hospitals.
1) We are using numbers that is given out by the Gaza Health Ministry which is directly controlled and tied to Hamas. GHM does not differentiate between civilian and combatant. Until there is an independent, third party means of actually gathering the actual casualty rate, it's difficult for me to trust the actual numbers.
2) Again, those homes, schools, and hospitals, are routinely used by Hamas – making them legitimate military targets. The onus of blame here is not on Israel but Hamas. Hamas is not unique in this however. And it is recognized by all international law as an egregious violation of laws. International law affirms that the protection to which hospitals are entitled is revoked when they are “used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy.”
Yes, I know it's vague, and there is a huge moral debate here. But the reality is that belligerents can, and do, utilize these places as "shields".
3) The capability of Hamas to even hit the Ashkelon power plant, Tel Aviv etc, has revealed how much better their rocket attacks have become, and they are directly being provided by Iran, to which Hamas admitted as such recently. This capability must be eliminated wholly and any country, including Israel, is utterly justified to get rid of this capability from the enemy. The question is, at what cost, and I think that answer is entirely subjective. What isn't subjective is by the sheer extent that the Israelis have shown in minimizing the civilian cost. But it's difficult to view it that way when the expectation for civilian cost is 0.

>now you have further embittered everyone to the existence of Israel and legitimized Hamas. The degree of resentment against Israel is insane.

Which only highlights the double-standards, the inability to grasp the realities of such a conflict, the total one-sided activism. It also tells me that the only way for Israel to not garner any kind of resentment is to let the belligerents like Hamas do as they will, and to appease the international activists means what we need to see is a bunch of dead Jews. This isn't realistic. It's built entirely on the guilt and naivite of Western activists who seem to not be able to grasp that the world is an ugly, gray place, and that the over-simplistic "oppressor vs oppressed" dynamic is horrifically callous. And I'll be frank. No Israeli should sacrifice their lives for the good will and feelings of some Western idealist. If Israel's, and by extension, Jewish, existence comes at the cost of some upsetting some guilt-ridden Westerners so be it.

Incidentally, it's been less than a week and we are effectively already kind of over it. So the cost is even cheaper than you'd think. It took literally a few days after the ceasefire to take place when the entire issue is barely even in the news anymore. The activism is dried up, and moved on to something else entirely. So whatever resentment that comes seems to exist for a brief period of time. And this has been consistent. During 2014, when literally 5-10 times more Palestinians were killed, the activism disappeared a few weeks after the conflict ended. It disappeared even faster than that this time around.

What is left over, is what we, as Jews, saw. And I will repeat once again my personal phrase: Right wing Anti-Semitism is explicit and is often universally condemned. Left wing anti-Semitism is implicit and is often acceptable because it is cloaked in emancipatory politic/rhetoric. I see it first hand this time around.
I have a lot of progressive friends, a lot. Only one, just one, actually called out the blatant anti-Semitic placards and signs at these Pro-Palestinian protests. And not done by Palestinians, but by white-college age activists who are swept up in the moment's movement without ever considering what they are doing.

I see it.

>Had Israel not adopted a policy that functionally made Palestinians second-class citizens and given them rights, it would have felt less like a foreign occupation to them and more like what jolly jew was talking about where palestinians and jews could have lived side by side.

We need to be a bit clearer here.
Arabs within Israel proper are not at all second class citizens, these Arabs, are, largely Palestinians. Is there some discriminations from private citizens and some institutions – yes, but that is the case in every country. However, they are given effectively the same rights as Israeli Jews, etc.

This becomes incredibly mirky when applied to the West Bank occupied territories – but, the Palestinians there (In Area A) are not citizens of Israel, they are in fact citizens of Palestinian Authority, they are governed by the Palestinian Authority, according to the agreements under the Oslo Accords, and how the laws pertaining to the Occupations tend to be. Where it get's very mirky is in Area B which is governed by both, and Area C which is effectively governed by Israel, however the overwhelming bulk of Palestinians are in Area A. And by the way, there are a lot of injustices, especially with the settler issue that I think is a legitimate issue to take on and Israel is in the wrong here (and many many MANY Israelis agree).

Gaza is an entirely different beast, and I think it's extremely important to make these differentiations.

Gaza isn't occupied despite what International opinion is. It is under siege, because it's movements are restricted by the Egyptians and the Israelies. Both also are blockading them to prevent military equipment from coming into Hamas – and largely it works. The situation is complex, to be sure, especially how PA effectively has to pay for Gaza's infrastructure, but PA does not recognize Hamas rule – it's mind boggling.

>With proportionate response, honestly, Israel should have stopped their retaliation after the first day, and avoided hospitals and schools entirely-regardless of the weapons stockpiles there, hospitals and schools should ALWAYS be protected targets.

I do not know what proportionate response is. But if Israel avoids hospitals and schools entirely, doesn't this just incentivize Hamas operatives to effectively use these places (which is against international law, anyway, but they do not care at all) as effective shields? They become effectively untargetable, effectively invincible?

>And honestly they should have made efforts before all of this went down to focus on de-escalation, because Netanyahu really…didn't, focus on de-escalation at all.

To an extent here I agree.