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Genetic Modification of Humans

Last posted Mar 17, 2021 at 07:15PM EDT. Added Mar 13, 2021 at 10:54PM EST
11 posts from 10 users

Before I start this off let me make one thing clear. This is no longer something that exists only within the realm of speculative fiction. It has happened and is happening.

About 2 years ago a Chinese Scientist, He Jiankui, used CRISPR-cas9 (a genetic modification technique used by bacteria to edit out viral DNA from their genomes) to create genetically modified babies. More recently it has been revealed that the Chinese government is using this technology to enhance their own soldiers.

So what are the implications for this? And I want to know what you guys think we should do going forward.

Now I don't just want people to go solely on appeal to authority, but as a biologist, I believe this is a Pandora's box that should have never been opened. Human beings, as a society, are simply not ready to use this technology. Our cultures are still far too classist and materialistic to use this kind of technology responsibly. As far as I'm concerned, He Jianki is the J. Robert Oppenheimer of genetics. The only difference is, I don't think he fully comprehends what he has done.

Last edited Mar 13, 2021 at 10:56PM EST

I think most everyone would like the idea of creating a generation immune to disease, disability, and predisposed to be healthier. The question lies more on what is the cost? Like a decade and a half ago or so we had the topic of cultivating stem cells to do this sort of thing, and many weren't happy with the cost there. "Life to save life" as Dream Theater summed it up.

If there are unsavory side effects or mandated legislation I could see that being an issue. It's already a pain in the ass to get people to take their vaccines, I can't imagine the uproar at mandating pre-natal gene-mods for parents. On the flipside of that, imagine the ethical uproar of parents choosing specific genetic traits for their child: their hair color, eye color, perhaps even their sex. I shudder to imagine what sort of legislation would be put into effect.

I also sometimes worry about the increasing non-essential medical procedures we learn how to perform. A medical procedure that is named at healing someone engenders more risks than benefits. If we get into more cosmetic types of surgeries we open up the risk of people harming themselves through these surgeries. It's already a problem with people doing weird shit like making donuts/horns/whatever on their heads, I worry what else might happen if people have access to more options.

The sci-fi wishful side of me is totally on-board for a genetically-engineered futa catgirl future, but the conservative realist side of me wants to know the costs.

Here's some thoughts on the matter:
I'm not exactly optimistic about the use of this technology. I see great potential for good like curing diseases, but also plenty of avenues for abuse given the fact that it's going to interact with a lot of the flawed societal, legal and economic structures we still currently have and are unlikely to adequately change before genetic modification becomes more widespread.

But, at the same time, there's also the posibility that this isn't AS lifechanging as we may have anticipated. Not that there wouldn't be any consequences stemming from this, but that we might end up living with a technology that only goes so far as we've accomodated for it. In one respect, it's not unusual for we as humans to decide not take up on certain actions out of our own discomfort with what the action itself is or what consequences it may carry. On another, we might just never enact any 'proper' or serious use this technology within a widespread context that we could just end up having more an awkward mess of people trying to live out their fantasies rather than a dystopian future.

What I'm getting at is that the prospect of a dark foreboding future may be defused by the fact that humans may be too flawed to achieve that. I wouldn't too be surprised if technology originally developed with the intent of creating super soldiers may end up just being used for someone's ACTUAL crazy attempts at catgirls. Not to take away from the seriousness of the conversation, but I've seen A LOT of things that pops up on the internet in my nearly quarter decade of existence that subvert my conventional understanding of reality and of my fellow man to the point that I'm not sure what to make of a lot things anymore.

I'm still not feeling good about this, we're definitely gonna see people having to live out the consequences asociated with this, like posible unnecesary medical procedures like wisehowl_the_2nd stated. But I don't think any actual horrible dystopia will arise out of this. Just some unneeded headaches.

I'd love to hear from someone who might disagree or add to what I've said.

I think any honest discussion of this topic must acknowledge that "ban it" is not a neutral, no-harm option. The potential harm this technology might cause has to be weighed against the current harm from diseases etc. that it could fix. Saying we have to sit on potential life-changing, life-saving treatments until society is sufficiently "non-materialistic" for your liking doesn't sound like a very humane stance to me.

In any case, is it a moot point? If the tech exists and is being used for dodgy purposes anyway, is there anything to gain by refusing to use it for good?

Genetic modification could be a good alternative to natural selection which tends to be a naturally cruel. Getting immunities to various diseases and getting rid of many genetic disorders would be a great thing.

I'm concerned about some governments figuring out how to genetically engineer very obedient people. Would be rather ironic that people who would never be happy would want to create people who are content with everything.

It's also interesting to know how things would work out when genetic modification would combined with transhumanism in the future.

Last edited Mar 14, 2021 at 07:09AM EDT

Set wrote:

I think any honest discussion of this topic must acknowledge that "ban it" is not a neutral, no-harm option. The potential harm this technology might cause has to be weighed against the current harm from diseases etc. that it could fix. Saying we have to sit on potential life-changing, life-saving treatments until society is sufficiently "non-materialistic" for your liking doesn't sound like a very humane stance to me.

In any case, is it a moot point? If the tech exists and is being used for dodgy purposes anyway, is there anything to gain by refusing to use it for good?

I understand the potential for this tech to fix many of our medical issues. My major concern is that this could further create class divides. Especially in societies which still have caste systems (formal or informal). Now the differences won't just be arbitrary, those of the elite upper class will now be able to say that they are genetically bred to be superior to others.

Sure I could see this kind of tech being used for life saving operations. But its most common usage will more than likely be to create designer babies, since many people still see their children as objects and trophies through which they can vicariously live their lives. Those of the upper class will be the only ones who can afford to do such things.

This kind of technology has always existed; we've had the ability to edit human genomes going as far back as the 90s. We just didn't because experimenting on people is a line your not supposed to cross. And now that society has finally decided to cross that line, now of all times, I fear that it will exacerbate many of our social issues.

TripleA9000 wrote:

Before I start this off let me make one thing clear. This is no longer something that exists only within the realm of speculative fiction. It has happened and is happening.

About 2 years ago a Chinese Scientist, He Jiankui, used CRISPR-cas9 (a genetic modification technique used by bacteria to edit out viral DNA from their genomes) to create genetically modified babies. More recently it has been revealed that the Chinese government is using this technology to enhance their own soldiers.

So what are the implications for this? And I want to know what you guys think we should do going forward.

Now I don't just want people to go solely on appeal to authority, but as a biologist, I believe this is a Pandora's box that should have never been opened. Human beings, as a society, are simply not ready to use this technology. Our cultures are still far too classist and materialistic to use this kind of technology responsibly. As far as I'm concerned, He Jianki is the J. Robert Oppenheimer of genetics. The only difference is, I don't think he fully comprehends what he has done.

No, of course we haven't opened the Pandora's box to eugenics 2.0. That's just fear mongering. Human DNA was made to be tampered with. We should all be striving for genetic perfection. We should do everything within our power to eliminate all genetic deficiencies and disorders. We should coax our genetic code into flawlessness. Anyone who says otherwise is just slippery slope fearmongering. All hail Chairman Pooh.

NO! wrote:

Should be seriously regulated imo

I agree

Governments should regulate it to only be used to cure diseases (and actual ones)

If someone claims that idk, nose/ear shape and hair/eye/skin color is a disease, they should tell them:

I welcome the genetic modification revolution in humans with open arms. I'm not optimistic, however, that great government regulation is going to accomplish what we want it to accomplish. Governments, especially the US government, is reluctant to even pass any major regulatory policy on automation, and AI, recognizing that in reality, they will be only stifling themselves, as other, somewhat hostile nations will continue to pursue the technology we are denying ourselves. Similarly, I doubt it would be able to form the kind of regulatory policy on genetic engineering that would stifle it self when other nations will have no such regulatory policy.

One can make the case that there ought to be a global convention on this, but if we're going to be realistic and objective, international laws are only as strong as their enforcement mechanisms, and many countries go to incredible lengths to conceal what they are forbidden to do. If the only enforcement mechanism right now is a single super power i.e. the US, we have to ask ourselves the question if the US is prepared to go to war with another nation if that nation is violating the international regulatory policy of genetic modification.

I do not have much fear in the Chinese creating super soldiers, or any nation doing it. Already the future of warfare is going to be AI driven, and practically autonomous. No matter how genetically strong your super soldier is, an AI driven drone can still put a bullet into their gut. And besides, the Chinese have a serious demographic nightmare that is their biggest Achilles heel in their military power: the effects of the one-child policy. Up until probably a few months ago China did not have any kind of social security pension system. The Chinese pension system is entirely familial, you have a child, that child takes care of you in your old age. The Chinese even made it a legal requirement for the young to take care of their elderly. But because of the one-child policy, many of these elderly are entirely reliant on their one child to take care of them. Imagine, then, a large scale war with the Chinese, who's infantry is composed of largely children that have no siblings. Every single one of their soldiers dead means that their parents' retirement is put into jeopardy. It also means that the parents will lose their only child, their only way of passing on the most basic biological function. Any major war with large scale casualties then would create so much internal political problems that the Chinese are effectively incapable of long-term casualty attrition. Anyway, I digress.

The best one can do is strive to keep the following two conditions going forward:
1) Genetic Modification should be, at all times, completely optional. Any coercive measures by the state (any state) to genetically modify a human being should be resisted at all costs, even if the demands may be ultimately good for the person. In the US this is far easier to accomplish because we already have legal system that forbids the government to compel a lot of things in it's citizenry. This gives the state too much power in creating it's own ideal citizen.

2) Genetic Modification should be as widely accessible as possible, to the largest segment of society. Any laws that forbid one set of people to engage in this while allowing another should be resisted. Again this is far easier in the US because of existing discriminatory laws.

Once the proverbial Pandora's box is open (let's be real, it's been open for centuries with livestock breeding, and selective breeding by nobility), the best way to handle it is to expand accessibility. We've seen time and time again what moral prohibitions does to a society, whether it is drugs, alcohol, prostitution, pornography. It always goes underground, it always fuels the criminal underworld, it always creates an unnecessary danger.

Last edited Mar 17, 2021 at 02:15PM EDT

My opinion on this is that it should be used exclusively for fixing actual, legitimate medical problems and using it for stuff like designer babies, cosmetics, etc. should be outright banned with the highest penalties possible in effect.

You want to cure your Coeliac Disease so you can stop breaking out in a painful, itchy rash that looks uncannily like Herpes, but isn't? Go ahead!

You want to get rid of your incredibly severe and debilitating Asthma that causes you to be unable to physically exert yourself in any meaningful manner? It's all good!

You want to create the world's handsomest supermodel celebrity? That is not allowed!

You want to make the perfect worker, with no complaints and little desires? Off to the electric chair with you!

Any unnecessary use of this technology will almost assuredly be disastrous in one way or another. Yet it would be foolish to refuse to use it at all, so therefore the best route in my opinion would be extremely conservative and responsible use of it and nothing more. Although I'm not optimistic that anyone in power will have either the intellect or constitution to implement any meaningful policies regarding it until irreparable damage has already been done to the Human Genome. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if "some" (read:Most if not all) of them even conspired to create "perfect" political candidates that are just overly charismatic mentally deficient meat sacks that walk around spouting the beliefs of whatever political party payed to have them made.

TL;DR: Nuke it. All of it. Mankind doesn't deserve the consequences of this, both the good and the bad ones.

Skeletor-sm

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