Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

I'm asking at what level you would say something is racist, sexist or such. You can believe they are extremely prevalent or exaggerated, but I would like to know where you put the line, if you have a line at all.

Second questions, is what do you think they mean? Not how it's handled in media or popular culture, but their definitions.

Getting personal reasons asides, I've just read elsewhere someone say that saying Blacks have a lower IQ isn't racist, which I would normally say it is, extremely so. Seriously, what the hell?

This far-right just seems to have created a reverse PC culture where you can't say something is messed up, even when it obviously is in view of basic decency.

I'd say I draw the line when you're deliberately attempting to discriminate and set a negative prejudice for the sake of being an arse. If you're going out of your way to make a certain ethnic feel unwelcome around you deliberately (successfully, mind you – petty attempts should be swept under the rug), it's a problem.

To answer your second question, I find the whole spectrum of discriminating and derogatory notions to just be notions for the sake of discriminating.

Inciting Violence or calling for violent actions to be taken against those people, or taking physical actions against a group of people, is where I set the isms.

There's dumb and wrong opinions, which everyone has, but if it only affects one person and is never acted upon, I'd argue it's a benign belief, one that doesn't cause harm to others and affects no one else, and so isn't worth the effort of getting offended about. It's more productive to laugh or mock that belief then to actually work to keep it down.

To me, when you start crossing the line is when you start calling for actual physical actions to be taken against people based on their skin color, sex, gender, nationality, or religion. And when a person does these things in the physical world, to harm others, because of what they believe about those other people having less worth and therefore deserving what happened to them.

Words are mostly meaningless, societies which have attempted to wrangle in and control the language in ways to reflect morality have often been on the wrong side of history, and often were more harmful to the cause of defeating discrimination or various isms then actually solving them.

It's actions that make isms so bad, and why it's important to reduce them to a mitigated level. I feel like in this day and age, people are way more sensitive to words then actual actions, which I find baffling. People who murder others over religious views are viewed in circles as more morally acceptable then those who hurt others feelings with a strongly worded paragraph or sentence. It's a time I really have no liking for, and I question why anyone would consider feelings more important then actions in determining what is or isn't an ism.

Citing statistics that may reflect poorly on a race isn't racist in itself. However, these stats can be used as a buttress for a racist statement. False stats are also not inherently racist, but they could have been forged for racist purposes.

In the case that you've stated, if there's actual stats that back up that statement, then what makes the statement "blacks have a lower IQ" racist isn't the statement itself (because it would be true), but rather the implications of such a statement in the conversation. Is this part of a greater point about how evil/inept/violent black people as a whole are, for example?

If you can, I'd like that you expand on your perception of the far right creating a "reverse" PC culture. I have thoughts to spare, but I'm not sure if I'd be talking to your perceptions as it stands.

racism: prejudice based on race (including the belief of inferiority or superiority of race). Basically "nigger are illeterate ape" and stuff in the same kind.

Sexism: prejudice based on sex (ex : women should stay in the kitchen).

Where do I put the line ? The line can be blured sometimes, between friends sometimes we have banters with stereotype between each other and that doesn't mean we are racist/sexist however having obnoxious comment when you talk to someone you don't about is sex/race could be.

Having a speech preaching to violence/hatred/persecution/etc is over the line of course.
A movie depicting racism or sexism doesn't mean it's promoting it.

Concerning the statistic argument said earlier, it's mostly about how you use it.
However considering black crime I think nobody (either left wing and right wing) talk about the elephant in the room : the fact that black neighborhood are completly under control gangs to the point it define the lifestyle and the culture of the area while isolating it from the outside world.

I thought you were never coming back. Pity that you did.

Anyways, racism is being discriminatory towards someone on the basis of their color. On another forum, I had a debate about Manveer Heir's tweets which many found to be racist against white people. However, the person I was arguing with believed that Heir was just calling out/protesting against white supremacy and racism towards minorities (he's Indian I believe). Another post I saw on another forum just viewed Heir as someone acting as a troll more than a racist. My mother believed that whites cannot be victims of racism, but I disagree with her on that theory.

Sexism is just prejudice towards a certain gender whether it's against males or females. Even though females have faced sexism in the past more often then men such as being denied higher job positions or becoming the victims of physical and vocal abuse, sexism against males has often been ignored because the media tends to focus too much on sexism against women even if they're legit or not.

I am very opposed to both racism and sexism. Even though I do believe that men and women are mostly real groups with different characteristics, I'm not going to live my life assuming that each man or woman I come across is going to act in a particular manner, let alone suggest that there should be some social or institutional barriers in place to keep them separate.
As for racism, I don't even believe in the concept of race to begin with, so classifying people as if they were different breeds or even species, and then suggesting that some are superior than others, or that some should be ruled over by others, or that they should be separated in order to stay "homogeneous" is ridiculous to me.

Racism is the belief that all members of a race possess certain characteristics and traits that either make them inferior or superior to another race. This can lead to things such as discrimination, being targeted for violence, or even genocide in extreme cases (though one can argue that many genocides were more ethnically motivated than racially motivated).

I draw the line at going out and fucking with people. Like you can think whatever you wanna think. But the moment you try to hurt someone or fuck with their lives because of their race, then that's a problem. That's one of the main reasons why i dont believe racists should hold any positions of power in society, since they can't be trusted to separate their biases from their decision making.

I would say something is racist when your opinion of someone is determined by their race. I.E. John is untrustworthy because he's black, Mike isn't as good at basketball as John because he is white, Joe gets better grades because he's asian, etc.

I would draw the line when it starts to actually affect your personal decisions. Thinking that all black people are criminals isn't great, but we can't punish people for thought crimes. Going out of your way to harass a coworker because he's white though… yeah that's crossing the line.

You're the one out of touch if you support Neo Nazi ideals.

Laika you can't dress up racism in fancy words like "local racial supremacy" and act with smug superiority and then complain that everyone else is "out of touch with reality". This smacks of pseudo-intellectual bullshit.

You also employ some really underhanded and frankly disgusting, manipulative verbal techniques, such as making rather brazen emotional appeals by attempting to make your awful racism more palatable to others by praisng rather general concepts like "the intellect and hard work of countless men and women" while casually making use of frightening terms like "subordinate" to refer to different ethnic groups.

This pattern of one group succeeding over another is natural and you see it in varying places across the globe.

This is the only part where you say anything halfway reasonable since it is historically observable. Humans have been dicks to each other based on race, for example, the whole slave thing. Unfortunately, knowing you, it comes from a place where you believe that such behaviour is acceptable. It's true that oppression and hierarchy is the history of the human race but the human race is also not static and changes over time. We reconsider and we re-evaluate, like when America eventually reached the conclusion: "Hey guys, do you think we should stop treating blacks as second class citizens? A lot of them seem pretty academically capable".

For another example, there are less places now where homosexuality is considered a crime, due to gradual understanding of the fact that religion is largely bullshit and should not dictate arbitrary factors such as the sexual relationships of consenting individuals. In this respect, you argue from a position of traditionalism or "it's how we've always done things", which has consistently proven to be a load of arse.

I do not respect your opinion in the slightest; it comes from a place of very irrational and backwards thinking as well as tricksy wording to try and make it sound more "legit". You make a play for traditionalism and that is one of the worst reasons to do anything. I sincerely hope that your whole act here is a gimmick of sorts designed to get people to actually reject terrible views you claim to espouse.

Thanks for the responses everyone (well, mostly)!

So far there seems to be a consensus, although there's a divide between "discrimination is discrimination" and actions are discrimination.

Also to the personal bit:
-Sort of more optimistic about KYM seeing that Nazi rhetoric isn't widely shared.

- I'm willing to continue Astatine on my second post, but not in this thread. Let's move it to messages.

In order to fight both sexism and racism, then one must first remove the institutions in the government and-or nation that reinforces it. One can argue that it has largely happened in the Western world, but at the same time, minorities and women still have a hard time following up in certain fields. Both racism and sexism is still real, but it's no longer protected by the state or law in the West. Instead, they're perpetuated by individuals.

I see affirmative action as necessary, as long as the intention isn't to shove unprepared or inexperienced people into different fields simply for the sake of diversity. At the same time, I believe that society's expectations towards men and women is still sexist in itself. For example, men are usually expected to be able to take care of themselves … Even if the majority of homeless people in the West happen to be men. Women are also expected to look pretty and feminine, while men are also expected to look manly and masculine; this creates a form of pressure that does make some jobs seem like a "woman's" or a "man's" job. Women and men aren't interested in certain jobs, because they're either uninterested or believe that the certain job is designed for the opposite sex.

Not annoying to me in the slightest, mate, it's simply very easy to see through your lip service and jingoist rhetoric :)

It would appear that you're looking at the accomplishments of Europeans (in your words, the central ones) as opposed to looking at the history that led to them, as well as their context, and asserting that obviously it must have been because they were naturally superior.

You clearly have no real understanding of European political, economic, and cultural history, and are just worshiping an idealized version of it you learned from whatever neo-nazi circlejerk webshites you visit.

>Be Me
>Browsing through serious debate threads out of boredom
>finds one on where to draw the line when it comes to racism and prejudice
>feels interested in expressing my opinion on the matter
>a few minutes of reading later
.
.
.
.
>Find out the thread has been hijacked by Edgy Closed-Minded Neo-Nazis after their parents told them to get off their Nazi Circlejerk Forums.
[INB4 someone responds with ad hominem about how I used greentext outside 4chan.]
let's just leave this thread to die, let Danth's Law leave these Nazi Fools to their fate and let them delude themselves into their typical rhetoric before leaving

it's amazing how easy laika is at making people flustered