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…let's have an abortion thread.

WAIT, DON'T GO!!

Instead of your standard "pro-choice/pro-life" debate, I want to hear about your personal opinion on the limits and regulations that surround abortions. I am going to quickly review each method of abortion and up to what week it can be performed. I will not be posting pictures or linking to the kind of pictures you see on protest signs (fun fact, I drive past an abortion clinic that is literally next door to a Christian church on my way to work and they wage heavy sign warfare against each other, neither side holds back).

First, according to CDC data (which is voluntarily reported and not actually collected or recorded whatsoever), ~88% of abortions in the US are performed within the first 12 weeks. Nearly all of the remainder are second trimester abortions (13-24 weeks). It is estimated that ~2,000 D & X abortions are performed annually in the USA. All of the descriptions I'm about to copy and paste are medical descriptions.

Manual Vacuum Aspiration: within 7 weeks after last menstrual period
Dilators (metal rods) are used to stretch the cervical muscle until the opening is wide enough for abortion instruments to pass through the uterus. A hand-held syringe is attached to tubing, which is inserted into the uterus. The fetus is suctioned out.

D & C (Dilation and Curettage): within first 12 weeks
The cervix is dilated. A suction device is placed in the uterine cavity to remove the fetus and placenta. Then the abortionist inserts a curette (a loop-shaped knife) into the uterus. The abortionist uses the curette to scrape any remaining fetal parts and the placenta out of the uterus.

D & E (Dilation and Evacuation): within 13-24 weeks after last menstrual period
The fetus literally doubles in size between the 11th and 12th weeks of pregnancy. Soft cartilage hardens into bone at 16 weeks, making the fetus too large and strong to pass through a suction tube. The D & E procedure begins by inserting laminaria a day or two before the abortion, opening the cervix wide to accommodate the larger fetal size. The abortionist then both tears and cuts the fetus and uses the vacuum machine to extract its remains. Because the skull is too large to be suctioned through the tube, it must be crushed by forceps for removal. Pieces must be extracted very carefully because the jagged, sharp pieces of the broken skull could easily cut the cervix.

D & X (Dilation and Extraction): from 20 weeks to full term. Also called “partial birth abortion.”
This procedure takes three days. During the first two days, the woman’s cervix is dilated. She is given medication for cramping. On the third day, she receives medication to induce labor. As the woman labors, the abortionist uses an ultrasound to locate the baby’s legs. The abortionist then grasps a leg with forceps and delivers the baby up to its head. Next, using a scissors, the abortionist creates an opening in the base of the baby’s skull. A suction catheter is inserted into the skull opening, and the baby’s brains are suctioned out. The skull collapses, and the rest of the baby’s body is delivered through the birth canal.

Now, the states and term limits. As of 2015, there are no term limits on abortions in Alaska, Colorado, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Vermont, and DC. The states with the lowest term limit are Mississippi and North Carolina at 18 weeks. Ten states set the ban at 20 weeks. The rest vary from 22-25 weeks.

In Alaska, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, and Washington minors do not need parental consent and do not need to inform a parent at all that they're having an abortion if they can pay for it themselves. All other states at least require a parent to be informed, though not all require consent.

An ultrasound prior to the procedure is only required in Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Virginia, and Wisconsin. Many of those states have a legal clause that says the woman does not have to view the ultrasound/hear the heartbeat, but the nurse needs to offer them the chance.

• Are there any procedures you don't feel should be performed? If you were told to declare a national abortion term limit, what would it be, if any?

• Do you support abortion restrictions for minors? Would a signed permission slip be enough for you or would you want in-person consent and a signed contract?

• Do you support mandatory ultrasounds prior to abortions? Do you support any limits or regulations in accordance to them, like mandating the woman must view the ultrasound or listen to the heartbeat, or at least have the nurse offer?

• Another common law put forth by conservative politicians involve regulating the clinics themselves. Some states want to hold abortion clinics to the same standard as outpatient hospitals. Some states want practicing abortion doctors to have admitting rights to a nearby hospital. Opponents say these unconstitutionally limit the availability of abortions to areas with hospitals (apparently the availability of hospitals in general is not a concern). Proponents say these are standard regulations for medical centers that keep women safe. What are your thoughts on these types of laws?
  
  

There is actually a method that goes before the 7 week period, but the mother has to assume that she is pregnant by that time. She takes a prescription medication which breaks down the macromolecules of the blastula, inhibits the hormone progesterone, and continues the menstrual process which is started with the hormones Estrogen and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone).

""Are there any procedures you don’t feel should be performed? If you were told to declare a national abortion term limit, what would it be, if any?""

I am okay with the first two procedures and the time ranges defining it. The mother knows by this point in time that she is pregnant, thus can take measures to remove the embryo. If at this point she's still not sure if she wishes an abortion, she should go full term. Not will, but should.

""Do you support abortion restrictions for minors? Would a signed permission slip be enough for you or would you want in-person consent and a signed contract?""

I would be more in favor of lifting abortion restrictions for minors. Having a baby is great, if you're financially-stable. If you're still thinking about graduating with a degree and obtaining a healthy career, suddenly having a baby destroys those dreams and goals, not to mention putting a grip on the local economy (little money to spend from little money flow from the hypothetical career means little money flow around the community).

""Do you support mandatory ultrasounds prior to abortions? Do you support any limits or regulations in accordance to them, like mandating the woman must view the ultrasound or listen to the heartbeat, or at least have the nurse offer?""

Due to my hypthetical ban on any abortions past 15 weeks (I've heard 13-15 weeks is still within the second procedure limit), there would be no need for viewing an ultrasound or listening to a heartbeat. If I were to extend the ban to further weeks, I would not require the audio to be heard.

""Another common law put forth by conservative politicians involve regulating the clinics themselves. Some states want to hold abortion clinics to the same standard as outpatient hospitals. Some states want practicing abortion doctors to have admitting rights to a nearby hospital. Opponents say these unconstitutionally limit the availability of abortions to areas with hospitals (apparently the availability of hospitals in general is not a concern). Proponents say these are standard regulations for medical centers that keep women safe. What are your thoughts on these types of laws?"

I'm not sure. If hospital visitation is freer than others, that is to say, they are closeby and can admit many numbers a day, I wouldn't have much to say on this. If a state limits the procedure to hospitals only and the hospitals are few and far between, this puts even more of a strain on a mother's already-stressful experience, economically and emotionally.

Oh God, she actually did it

…Ok fine!

• "Are there any procedures you don’t feel should be performed? If you were told to declare a national abortion term limit, what would it be, if any?"

No, and hard to say, due to the fluidity of fetal development, but I would say no later than week 24, when consciousness begins to form

• "Do you support abortion restrictions for minors? Would a signed permission slip be enough for you or would you want in-person consent and a signed contract?"

I think if anyone should have an abortion, it should be minors who get pregnant, and I would say no, the parents beliefs are not the child's beliefs and the child is the on that has to take care of the baby, so it should be their decision.

• "Do you support mandatory ultrasounds prior to abortions? Do you support any limits or regulations in accordance to them, like mandating the woman must view the ultrasound or listen to the heartbeat, or at least have the nurse offer?"

No, this is psychological and emotional manipulation by the pro-life crowd, pure and simple.

• "Another common law put forth by conservative politicians involve regulating the clinics themselves. Some states want to hold abortion clinics to the same standard as outpatient hospitals. Some states want practicing abortion doctors to have admitting rights to a nearby hospital. Opponents say these unconstitutionally limit the availability of abortions to areas with hospitals (apparently the availability of hospitals in general is not a concern). Proponents say these are standard regulations for medical centers that keep women safe. What are your thoughts on these types of laws?"

Ehh, I don't know too much about this part of the debate, but I feel like all doctors need regulation of some kind.

you guys I forgot I posted this.
now come on, I know all of you have opinions on this, and they might actually be varied for once!

I will now answer my own spoons to justify this bump~
you guys don't have to answer them like a quiz btw they're just to help you get started.

Side note, I didn't include the chemical options (pills) 1. because they all need to be administered fairly early and 2. the laws/regulations I went on to post about apply only to surgical abortions. I used to know someone who used the "abortion pill" and she was probably more scarred from that whole process (you go home and "miscarry" by yourself into a toilet) than she would have been from early-term manual aspiration where she didn't have to see or clean up anything on her own.

Like Freakenstein, I have no qualms against the first two options. The third process (D&E) makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. This is exactly the process pro-life protestors talk about when they say "abortion is literally ripping a baby apart" and you think "what a bunch of melodramatic nuts, abortions don't rip limbs off babies" but that is exactly what they do. I wish we could find a more humane way of terminating a >16 week pregnancy and setting the limit there, but until then I'm willing to compromise and allow D&E up to 20 weeks.

D&X should be straight up illegal imo, its description stands as the most fucked up thing I've ever read in my life. If you can't decide by 5 months/20 weeks whether or not you're in a position to keep your baby, you need to start looking at adoption options instead of abortion, because delivering your living baby up to its head and then decapitating it is some ISIS shit.

I do think minors should need to at least inform their parents of their abortion, though I would rather go with full consent. Not only are you now pregnant and hiding it, but you have (at the very least) $300-400 in medical expenses (and that's just for the pill, first-term abortions can cost up to $1500) to make somehow. Who knows what kids will resort to doing in order make money to avoid telling their parents they got pregnant. If you're not ashamed of having sex in the first place, you shouldn't be ashamed to tell your parents you are now afflicted with the condition that having sex is meant to create.

While I do not support mandatory viewing or heartbeat listening, I do support mandatory ultrasounds. What the fuck kind of doctor proceeds with a surgery without checking to make sure everything looks okay first? This ties in a bit with my next spoon, why do we make all these exceptions for abortion clinics? Would a hospital ever allow a doctor to perform surgery on a patient who just walked in off the street with no history taken or tests run first? Plastic surgeons are held to higher standard than abortion clinics/doctors. :|

I also can't get over how the liberal left says it's unconstitutional to restrict abortion clinics to within 30 miles of hospitals because then not everyone could have an abortion within a "reasonable distance" of their home, but apparently not unconstitutional for people to have no access to a regular hospital within a reasonable distance of their homes. What sort of logic is that and why is it even taken seriously?

We had several abortion debates in the past here. After the last one I resided to the conclusion that as a male, I don't really have a position in the abortion debate because it's ultimately a woman's matter that affects women and should be decided by women.

Don't get me wrong, I can see both sides of the abortion debate and I could certainly talk with you on the matter.

One one hand, abortion is still something I feel uncomfortable with. I never understood how a fetus can be 'dead' when it's living growing tissue. I think the religious groups feel the same way and of course life is going to be sacred to them.

I also would rather abortion is treated as a last resort when there no other good options. Being responsible comes first. If someone aborts a kid because they had irresponsible unprotected sex and want to keep fitting a size 8, I will despise that person.

On the other hand, abortion has proven necessary in some cases. There are various cases where it is absolutely needed and it can't really be outlawed in the interest of public health. It's fairer to regulate it instead. For example what about births that could kill the mother? That's a good reason to abort in my books.

But all that said. How I feel doesn't matter. Because I'm not the one that has to go through the rigors of being pregnant, giving birth or going through the clinic. And I shouldn't have a right to tell those who do, what to do with their bodies. That's why I haven't been posting here

""I never understood how a fetus can be ‘dead’ when it’s living growing tissue. I think the religious groups feel the same way and of course life is going to be sacred to them.""

This may just be a terrible strawman on the part of Fringe Pro-Choice folk who are okay with abortions but haven't done their scientific research. The Blastula/Embryo/Fetus is definitely living and growing. What makes it a conundrum is the incrementally-blurring line between "mass of cells" and "human" as the days pass. So this is where people have the different viewpoints, or perhaps none at all.

@BSoD I think males have just as much say when it's their baby/possible baby too. Just because it's not in their belly doesn't mean half of it's DNA isn't his. The decision to abort or not affects his like has much as the mothers, seeing how he's also going to be taking care of the baby, and the burden of parenthood affects him just as much. Despite the fact that it is the women's body, the male in the equation has just as much say because, whether your pro-life or pro-choice, this is more than a medical decision, it's a life decision both potential parents need to make. Unless the male is a rapist or a scumbag who dumps the girl when they hear the p-word, because they obviously don't care for the fetus or the women.

Also, it's not that pro-choice thinks of the fetus as 'dead' but not yet alive and it's own being. Your heart is also living tissue, but it has no consciousness and can't live without the rest of the body, so it can't be thought of as it's own being. Pro-choicers feel the same way about a fetus, that until it reaches the point of either consciousness or viability, it is just a part of the woman's body, much like an organ.

This is where most of the debate stems from, this blurry "where does life begin?" question that has a different answer depending on who you ask. While there are scientific definitions of life that can be applied, a lot of people don't like to think of life as just another phenomena. Many people are of the belief that life has a sacredness to it, or souls exist, which is closer to heart and easier for people to connect themselves with. Seeing how OP doesn't want this to become a Pro-life/choice debate, I will not post my stance, but I hope this helps you understand why certain people have their stance on the issue.

I didn't want it to be a life/choice debate because the issue is not so black and white that you can either be pro-choice or pro-life. I think most/everyone here agrees that some form of abortion needs to be allowed, but where exactly that line is drawn is what everybody disagrees on, and this forum doesn't disagree nearly enough. So if your opinion is "I don't consider a fetus a human until its born thus all of those procedures should be legal and the states should not have any term limits", by all means, post it.

@freak

Yea, the whole debate about whether fetuses are alive of not sure seemed like a massive distraction. We could argue infinitely where we define life to begin since honestly, I don't think we fully understand that concept. But regardless, we shouldn't be validating abortion on such a poorly defined technicality. It should be validated based on it's proven merits, benefits or detriments to society

Problem is, all our last abortion debates seemed to hover around the life subject a lot. Those arguments usually amounted to little. I take it Lisa is aware of that and doesn't want her own thread to suffer the same fate.

@Ryumaru

Yes, the fathers input matters for sure. I guess what I should have said is not a debate for childless people with no stake in parenthood (which still describes me)

Anyway. Moving on. lets answer some questions

Are there any procedures you don’t feel should be performed? If you were told to declare a national abortion term limit, what would it be, if any?

I find myself unconcerned with how abortion is done so long as it has a good reason why. So I don't object to any procedure

I can't decide on term limits but I think if the baby is just about finished, it may as well be sought to the end and be fully born.

Do you support abortion restrictions for minors? Would a signed permission slip be enough for you or would you want in-person consent and a signed contract?

Yes. I'd prefer to see an in-person counselling session take place with the minor and greater family first together with the abortion clinic before the minor makes the final decision. Teen/underage pregnancies have huge impacts on not just the minor but the also the family that the minor is in and that family needs to be there to support and guide the minor through the process one way or another

Do you support mandatory ultrasounds prior to abortions? Do you support any limits or regulations in accordance to them, like mandating the woman must view the ultrasound or listen to the heartbeat, or at least have the nurse offer?

I don't see the problem with the ultrasounds. Why wouldn't you check up on the condition of fetus first before continuing? It's one more check in place to prevent abortions from being used irresponsibly IMO

Another common law put forth by conservative politicians involve regulating the clinics themselves. Some states want to hold abortion clinics to the same standard as outpatient hospitals. Some states want practicing abortion doctors to have admitting rights to a nearby hospital. Opponents say these unconstitutionally limit the availability of abortions to areas with hospitals (apparently the availability of hospitals in general is not a concern). Proponents say these are standard regulations for medical centers that keep women safe. What are your thoughts on these types of laws?

I can't say too much on this one. I feel I'm too foreign and disconnected from how these laws work in each state to really comment on them

Well obviously I don't have a problem with abortion but I can have a problem with how abortion is used which makes the discussion focused on what is acceptable and unacceptable in abortion rather than if abortion is absolutely acceptable in itself

I'm a believer in fetuses getting a chance at whatever potential for a good life they can have and while I wont object to a parents right to allow or deny that potential, it still saddens me to see potential removed.

Therefore I'd rather see it used for good reason. EG: No parenting possibility. No good raising environment. Stress and rigors of pregnancy and birth are insurmountable or not affordable. Lifestyle change of parenthood too devastating to the parents future (this is especially applicable for young pregnancies). Adoption not viable. Pregnancy was a violation (applicable in rape scenarios). Damaged pregnancy. etc etc

I think a bad reason to abort would look like this: Ability to provide generously for a child but refusing anyway for sake of materialistic luxury. Not wanting to accept accountability for bad lifestyle decisions. Using abortion as an excuse to have unsafe sex. Sexist selection. Not giving the baby to someone who would like to adopt it. etc

If my focus is on the why, then when it comes to regulation, we would need to focus on the individuals intention, and there would need to be an audit on how viable the fetus has a chance of living. That can be done by analysis the fetus itself, the parents economic and educational situation and the parents surrounding family.

I can already see some downsides: First of all doing audits cost time and money. Secondly it brings the consent of family into the equation so abortions cant be done without people knowing. There are pros and cons for that as well. It could either help moderate abortion or stall it (if some family are prolife and others are prochoice and they argue, for example)

But the upside of that approach may be a more controlled abortion system with lots of checks and balances and that could put more minds at ease

To be totally honest, I hope that in the future we find a better way to deal with unwanted pregnancy. Abortion is the only option we have right now, but it's a crappy option. Maybe one day society will work out a better system