Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

So I was dicking around on the interwebs when i happened upon this article by Yahoo News:
https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/mom-fights-for-controversial-medicine-for-120195487227.html

Long story short, a mother with a transgendered daughter has started a petition to make drugs which block hormones which define sexual features (such as breasts for girls and adams apples for guys) covered under medicaid.

How do you guys view the situation? Should she succeed or shouldn't she?
Is this an issue warranting of federal attention, or is it merely an optional thing we as taxpayers shouldn't be paying for?

You know when i grew up I was always told that you would have to be a certain age to make big life changing decisions. Well apparently all that changed concerning transexuals.

There isn't really a satisfying answer here, but I'd tend to side with "no". However, that's only for now- I just think we need more time to let science give us a clearer picture of this issue.

Do you even know what puberty blockers do? It's literally what it sounds like. They postpone puberty so that transgender kids have more time to think it over. It's much harder to change a person's sex after they hit puberty than it is before. Giving them these drugs lets them reach a certain age before they make a decision.

Are you joking, with the rate of liberal parents who convince themselves their son is transgender because he touched a pink toy? I'd love to be there for the lawsuits when those kids hit 18 horribly disfigured and developmentally stunted because mommy was so sure her chic little three year old son is definitely desperate to be a pretty daughter. Anyone who gives puberty blockers to minors should be put in jail for child abuse.

I'm no expert in chemistry or hormone science so i can only speak from a novice standpoint; that being said: i remember a lecture i visited long time ago about the effect of modern chemicals (such as birth control medicine and so on) on the human body and the bottom line was, that we use them a bit to excessivly and that we still haven't gatherd enough data to say that's a-ok, without consequences.

So i would be very sceptical to the use of "hormone-surpressing-drugs", at least for children or teenagers whose bodies are still in devolpment. I mean, i'ts not impossible to undergo changes in later stages in life, when there's not as much "danger" to their bodies.

They are changing bodily functions to suit their desires. Postponing puberty could have very negative effects on your body which doing so in itself is a big decision. The parents are basically letting their kids make adult decisions which is why I don't like it. What if the kid grows up to regret this decision?

They are changing bodily functions to suit their desires.

That's more or less the definition of medical practice. Hell, even dieting is changing bodily functions to suit your desires.

Postponing puberty could have very negative effects on your body

Do you have any examples?

which doing so in itself is a big decision.

If a child is transgender then making them go through puberty is also a big decision.

he parents are basically letting their kids make adult decisions which is why I don’t like it.

You're acting like kids do this all themselves, they don't. In addition to the fact that they need parental consent, there are also psychiatric specialists they have to go through in order to get registered as transgender. It's not something you can do on a whim.

What if the kid grows up to regret this decision?

Then they can stop taking the medication and resume their puberty.

While I agree with your general idea, I'm not against giving transgendered youths puberty blockers – as long as they're sure they're trans. It's not something the parents, doctors, or government can figure out; it's the kid's decision.

"horribly disfigured and developmentally stunted"

Where in the hell did you get that from any of this? This isn't some kinda freaky mad scientist experiment shit we're talking about.

And even among the people who wholeheartedly support this idea, very few have the kind of crazy necessary to suggest that anyone who isn't right on the cusp of puberty- let alone a fucking three year old- should be allowed to have this done to them. However, yes, parental manipulation is absolutely a problem that must be considered.

Stunted development and physical disfigurement are the point of puberty-blockers. They deny the brain the chemicals its expecting in order to initiate certain developmental processes, and nobody knows what the long term effects of that are.

Also:

{ Within its clinical practice guidelines for the treatment of transsexual persons, the Endocrine Society suggests that for most children with GID, the condition will not persist into adolescence. Acknowledging that percentages differ between studies, the society maintains that "the large majority (75-80%) of prepubertal children with a diagnosis of GID in childhood do not turn out to be transsexual in adolescence." The society further elaborates its opinion on the matter: "Clinical experience suggests that GID can be reliably assessed only after the first signs of puberty." }

What Teen has ever known who they were and what their identity is growing up? I didn't even find out my sexuality until after high school. This is a way too big decision to be left up to someone who hasn't hit puberty yet, and the parents are the ones medically responsible for their children, so it's ultimately their decision anyway.

While I'm not a extreme as lisa, she does make a good point. Parents are the window to the world for children, and they mostly believe anything they tell them. What happens when a parent tells their child they are transgender so much they believe it without feeling it themselves?

Gender Identity is something you can't figure out for sure until you are an adult, and altering your body so extremely is a decision no prepubescent can make while knowing the consequences.

Some of you are acting like these kids are deciding this by themselves with lisa and typhoon using complete hyperbole. These kids have to go to therapists and endocrinologists and are likely in their early teens or late preteens and have had these feelings for years. They don't hand out blockers to anyone who desires them, trust me. Of course there might be abuse to the system but you shouldn't let that destroy the lives of children. Some of these kids who are legitimately would first kill themselves than go through puberty. And this debate is simply over whether it should be covered or not and I say yes all the way for minors and everyone really. Trans people are a small single digit percentage of the population so it wouldn't take out that much out of taxpayer pockets as well as the sheer necessity of the drugs for legitimately trans kids. It's just as important as any other medication used for mental conditions or physical conditions so yes it should be covered.

And as I said trying to act like you can get these blockers at 3 because the child feels like is extremely heavy misinformation and dishonesty. You could look up a documentary right now if you wanted to on trans kids and immediately learn otherwise. Get a clue before you talk about something you apparently know little to nothing about. Usually the parents are the ones urging the child to think twice, not forcing them to take the drugs because of the "liberal agenda". It's just as laughable a notion as parents "turning their children gay". I said, there will be abusers, but there are way too many legitimate cases to dismiss this and the precautions are in place to prevent abuse. Please, I recommend looking up these documentaries. I'd link it but not now since I'm typing this on mobile. It takes some effort to do some research, but none to have an opinion. Remember, without the changes they need some of these kids could die.

I feel like these should not be covered with Medicaid. Medicaid is paid for by the government for poor people and spending money on drugs that aren't necessary to live is a waste of money.

Parents start 9 year old on hormone therapy

Representative's 8 year old transgender granddaughter exploring hormone blocking treatment after being used in his photo campaign as a girl

Now 11 year old boy began hormone blockers at age 8 after years of lesbian parents telling him he's transgender to the point where he threatened to cut off his own dick unless they started treatment

It happens all the time, increasingly as modern hyperliberals grow up and reproduce.

@sam
But more transgenders die after they get surgery. Besides pre-teen is still not a good place to make decisions.

Here's the thing: This is the kind of debate where, in order to really argue definitely for one side of the other, you need some actual… what's the word… evidence, probably in the form of cited peer-reviewed scientific reports. And neither is doing a very good job of that at the moment.

@lisalombs

Three opinion pieces on individual cases = "happens all the time"? Yeah, sure.

@Mr. Stalker

Any proof whatsoever?

@Kraken

I have already clarified how suicide and self-mutilation can be a consequence of this. Blockers and hormones are something that are like any other medicine for a condition auch as ADHD, depression, bipolar disorder, etc.

@Lisa

None of those articles mentioned brainwashing at all. The first one did say it was too early but that was less of a news article and more an opinion piece, and that one still said nothing about parent brainwashing. In fact the other two even had points where they mentioned the child having these feelings without the parents telling them and that there was no pressure. Also the point that these kids have in common that they've had these feelings for years and years which to a psychologist shows persistence and consistence which show how legitimate a mental disorder or condition is. Look up a documentary or news story on it as I previously mentioned. I'm not surr where you got from those articles that liberals are brainwashing their kids to be trans, and as I said previously it's just as silly as thinking kids wre brainwashed to be gay.

@Stalker

Link please? I've never heard of this, I've just heard that suicide and self-harm increases without treatment. And I have to bring up again what .9999 said, these arenmt crazy experimental chemicals, they just give children and parents even more time to decide if they will go through hormones and even further down he line a sex change. Many things could stunt growth like diet or even caffeine as .9999 pointed out.

Finally I'd like to point out again that this debate is over the coverage of the drugs and I am 100% for this for adults and still largely supportive for minors. Kids with a legitimate issue are going to need this if their parents sre struggling financially. People already do this, coverage will just allow the poor and middling classes to get these with precautions like psychologists and endocrinologists still in place. Every medicine will have abusers, but like any other medicine, those who need it must be attended to.

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@.9999

You're totally right with the evidence thing. I almost forgot to add to my rebuttal to lisa, 3 little examples (examples I already said didn't support her) isn't proof of a huge problem. And sorry if I'm a little lacking, as I said I'm on mobile but when I get to a computer I'll try to link what I've been talking about.

How are the parents and doctors involved legally able to get away with this?

I could sit here and post more, it's not like those are the only the that exist. It's hard to find national sources because these cases are only coveted in the news when the parents want to talk shit back to the people talking shit at them for doing it in the first place.

We've also only been using hormone blockers on transgender people for a mere fifteen years, not many people at all have had the opportunity to take advantage of them, but those hyperliberal parents sure are quick to volunteer their kids as test subjects.

All of the studies about trans children and hormone blockers, even the progressive Dutch, use children ranging from 12-14, which really says it all.

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{ How are the parents and doctors involved legally able to get away with this? }

It's not illegal. You just need parent permission.

I think you missed the point of what me and Sam said- no matter how many of those types of articles you can manage to dig up, the fact still remains that they're worthless in this discussion. Even with that being said, you stating that the parents in those three pieces "volunteered" their kids is little more than your attempt to spin them to fit your narrative.

Examples of parents who let their potentially trans kids convince them to go on largely untested medication four years before any legitimate psychologists are willing to even use them as test subjects is not relevant to a discussion about little kids using largely untested medication at an age before legitimate psychologists would confidently I use them in their research?

I stated that parents of transkids in general are too easily willing to volunteer their is as test subjects, not just those three. What else do you call people who offer their children's bodies and lives to an unregulated, unverified treatment?

Almost all of what you've said so far has hinged on the claim that this hormone-blocking medication is "largely untested". But you haven't even attempted to back this up, except to say that it's "only" been around for 15 years.

lmao you mean the lack of studies in global medical/psychology databases isn't proof that there aren't any studies? There's a lot in progress, but legitimate medical studies don't span one year or two. They follow their subjects for 20+ years as they age and complete their transition.

Go Google it for yourself, there is literally one complete study by the Dutch that followed transitioning 12-14 year olds until they were 21 and it wasn't trying to test side effects, just emotional/mental security as they continued with their transitions. It found that those who started hormone blockers at 12-14 were as mentally/emotionally secure as members of the general public within the same age range, just in case anyone wanted to know.

The decision to change sexes is a choice that should be made by a mentally healthy (as mentally healthy as people suffering from gender confusion tend to be) adult, not by an attention-seeking parent for their prepubescent child.

As for the Medicaid funding, absolutely not. Being transgender/sexual is a lifestyle, that is to say, something that the individual living the lifestyle should be (financially) responsible for, not taxpayers.

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Should puberty drugs be covered under medicaid? I echo others here that it should not be part of it.

Medicaid should only be used on those in severe critical conditions or total poverty. In other words: the people that really need it. It shouldn't be used on people with perfectly healthy able bodies. And no, not being able to identify with your body does not mean you are in urgent need of taxpayer funded aiding. That may sound heartless but most transgenders can still make perfect use of their bodies and get by pretty well in life despite their condition

I don't know, i'd have to think about if for some time, but off the top of my head if i had a child who was transgender, i wouldn't want him to take those pills, cause not just the sexual organs and sexuality things develop, so does everything else like brain functions, maturity, body functions.
If he stunted his growth he'd never grow up, whole parts of his brain would never develop.
And besides i imagine at that age they're not even sure if they want to make that life altering decision, or if they're even transgender?
I wouldn't want to live the life of the person in the video below, maybe if they made pills that triggered female puberty in man that would be better.

Since the effects of the drugs appear to be reversible, then I say go ahead. If she really is having this dilemma, and there's still a chance to change her mind, then I see no danger

But they don't know what they could do to her as a side effect. Honestly, this sort of thing makes me very uncomfortable especially since they are so young. I don't understand transgenders or non-binaries

Exactly what Chalice said. I've noticed most of the disagreement posts hold a severe lack of understanding of the blockers or hold assumptions of them. I bet many of you do not know what hormone blockers are outside of this thread. Like all of lisa's arguments run on assumptions such as these will hurt the child inevitably and that there are many cases where people are brainwashing their kids into being trans, both of which she has yet to prove.

The reason they give these kids blockers is so they have even more time to be evaluated for actually being trans. This kids have likely already been trans for a few years and now they will have more years for psychologists to check for consistency and legitimacy. They will take these blockers for a few years and then make the decision of whether to continue with hormone therapy or not. If they decide no, they will stop taking blockers and then their hormone levels will go back to normal and puberty will continue. Users in this thread such as Giegue and especially Blue Screen are arguing under the assumption that they "will never have puberty" which is just silly if you even know what these drugs do in the slightest. The point is to postpone puberty not cancel it forever. If they are cancelled these kids will go through normal puberty and if they decide to take hormones they will go through puberty of the opposite sex. They will still have puberty. Another argument I saw Blue making was that people should "learn to feel comfort in themselves" which is something I find to be very misinformed as a trans person myself. It's like telling someone with clinical depression to "just feel happy" or something. Of course the kids should try to learn how to cope with their discomfort better but the strength of the emotions varies from person to person and for some it would be impossible. As I said some of these kids would die before going through puberty without exaggeration.

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And as I was saying earlier, I have some sources now such as a documentary (of which there are dozens):

Here's and article on blockers and as you can see there are many precautions, check-ups, etc. to ensure the child is ready medically and if they need it mentally.

Here is another more extensive article and another thing you may notice is that these are highly expensive only justifying them being covered by medicaid even further. The article even says "As a result, the out of pocket cost of these agents can be quite substantial." And in a direct quote from the article, "They are given to a child until the child is older and mature enough to enter into puberty, and once these agents are stopped, puberty will start on its own." As you can see, I am not making this up, puberty will continue naturally, just postponed. And also the article mentions these aren't just used for trans kids but children who have a disorder in which puberty comes too early so it needs to be pushed back.

So seriously, guys, stop having opinions on something you might not have even looked up. Sure it's the easy way and I'll admit everyone can be guilty of it including myself, but especially with a subject like this where everything relies on science, look something up.

100% agree

Seriously, wtf? puberty blocker sound extremely dangerous for one.
People are very different after puberty. Seriously, how many kids can confidently explain how they feel about themselves, and how many do you think change dramatically from age 10 to 16?
I was not comfortable with my body when i was in elementary school, but by the time i was in highschool, i loved who i was.

{ both of which she has yet to prove. }

nigga listen, the medical community does not know the long term effects of using puberty blockers from a young age OR the long term effects of restarting puberty at an older age. We simply have not been using them in transgender applications long enough to know. The only use puberty blockers are approved for is to stop precocious puberty, or puberty in children who are less than 7-9 years old until they are 7-9 years old. It has never been constantly used for such long periods that transgender children would require.

The only thing we know is that yeah, it will delay puberty and when it's stopped being given at the ages when puberty naturally occurs in humans regular puberty will resume.

{ If they decide no, they will stop taking blockers and then their hormone levels will go back to normal and puberty will continue. }

We do not know that. We have no idea if puberty will resume normally if not allowed to begin and started again at a later stage in life.

Your own quote with more context: { “In children they are used to treat precocious puberty, when puberty happens too early. They are given to a child until the child is older and mature enough to enter into puberty, and once these agents are stopped, puberty will start on its own.” }

As the sentence before it says, that sentence is discussing precocious puberty, not transgender puberty delay which is a completely different use with unresolved issues that need to be studied and addressed.

Your source also points out: { One has to be in the second stage of puberty to demonstrate that there is puberty to suppress. and Some health insurance will cover them partially in cross gender treatment, and some won’t. }

I see no need to take needless risks with children's lives when studies are currently in progress, and I see no need to pay for anyone's treatment through more of my tax dollars when there are already companies and plans out there that will cover the treatments.

@Sam

As I said some of these kids would die before going through puberty without exaggeration.

If the livelihood of these children are at stake and they need such drugs to stop them from entering a state of suicidal depression, then that's fine. I agree with you. That's a perfectly legitimate reason to use them. And looking through articles it appears there's little evidence so far of the treatments causing any major damage to the people that undertook them

Call me a naturalist. I just didn't like the entire concept of defying nature

I wasn't assuming that puberty blockers prevent puberty from happening entirely. I know it just postpones it. But that still made me uncomfortable anyway, mainly because I think puberty should happen when it's time for it to happen

I'd just rather see kids raised to understand their bodies and what it goes through rather than fear it and avoid natural development. I can't tell depressed people to just cheer up. Likewise I can't tell the transgendered to like what they are. But we can train the depressed how to understand depression and manage it. We can also teach transgendered children how to understand their bodies and be able manage them too right?

I've always felt that this attitude that "I have gender dysphoria! I need immediate action" is honestly disturbing and needs to stop, now. I don't think these people are really thinking about the consequences of their actions.

I mean, you get idiots who go around and say what I have should have activism and we should have the same rights as transgender people are getting and blah blah blah but honestly I don't really think that what is being disputed here is really the rights of the transgender person themselves, but rather the parents here. I mean, I cannot honestly understand, except out of the most extreme of cases, why a parent would accept, "Yes, lets change my child's gender because they said so!". Is that really your child's opinion or your opinion?

One problem I notice a LOT in this neo-transgender movement is that there's a lot of pressure put on people from the outside to actually be transgender. To put how bad this problem is in perspective, on Pokecommunity I made a thread to ask about an issue I was having; however I obscured the nature of the issue somewhat because I made a thread under a different account about the issue with mixed results from the community. Even though I pointed out no less than three times that my issues had nothing to do with gender, they continually tried to assume that I wasn't the gender I stated I was, claiming everything up the book to "Genderqueer". It was annoying, because my question had nothing to do with being transgender – it was just an experience that many transgender people go through (learning to not feel ashamed of expressing their needs). People should not be under so much pressure to question their gender identity – gender dysphoria isn't exactly something that you aren't unaware of if you have it, after all.

And people are trying to tell me that the parents have absolutely 0 influence on the kids who are claiming they're transgender? Bull fucking shit. We live in the generation where parents are now participating on websites like tumblr and twitter where you can claim your gender is practically anything. It's not surprising to me that all the sudden a bunch of parents are claiming their kid wants to be the opposite sex, and I would not be surprised if a good portion of those are looking for their kids to suggest that.

This isn't even to mention that this shit is very confusing when you're a young teen. Yes, I had issues that started off early like a transgender person. Yes, I knew I was always different. Yes, I wish I had accepted myself earlier. But at the same time, I didn't know for sure what my problems were until I was much older. In the same period I thought I was a transguy and I realized I wasn't one, but if I acted on my urges then, I would regret it deeply later. It turned out my issues I couldn't even fully understand until I was a full functioning adult. Yes, I have to deal with that baggage now and I know there are some things that can never be made up but that's life, unfortunately.

I mean, I had to suck it up, I'll probably have to do that for the rest of my life, it's entirely possible to wait and figure out what's right for you instead of rushing up to the goalpost. Yes it absolutely fucking sucks but what are you going to do about it? I'd rather not make a life changing decision until I know that I'm ready to be able to make that decision.

And I apologize for making this personal, but what am I going to do? There's no transitioning program for me and my problems. There's nothing that I can have that will help improve my battles with non-gender identity disorders. There's nothing I can do other than work with myself as the symptoms intensify. There's fucking NOTHING online, no damn resources, no programs, nothing. Transgender people have a lot of fucking options and they basically have full access by the point they're halfway trough their teens, parents permitting. I apologize for sounding like a douche in advance, but I'm fucking serious – why do these crazy fringe parents act like this can't wait like 5 fucking years? This is how I see this whole thing. They literally have everything at their fingertips, something I would fucking kill for, they have like every other therapist in the nation who will help them out and they're bitching about the fact that they can't start a relatively new and unresearched treatment in minors? Again unless that kid seriously fucking needs it, that is absolute overkill, and half of the time I'm willing to bet the kid doesn't even have a grasp of their own identity yet.

The problem definitely is though when you enter adulthood. I'm not trans but I can say from my personal experiences that my issues did get worse as I got older and more stressed out. But I'd rather know for sure this is my problem as an adult and work with myself later towards some sort of resolution instead of just assuming I have a problem based on a sudden feeling during a very emotionally volatile time in my life.

I mean, I wouldn't care if they were just treating them as the opposite sex, but hormones are doing something to your body. We're honestly still very early on in understanding how that all affects our body. And as a kid, you're more vulnerable to fuck ups than any time in your life.

I mean for fuck's sake unless your kid is trying to rip off their penis or something equally as serious (which most cases are not) I can't think of one good reason why the benefits of having a transgender puberty override the fact that at 10 you don't exactly know yourself at all yet.

nah