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Yeah that is pretty messed up. What he said didn't even seem all that bad.

It's a real mess out there, and really I don't know if I should put my back on any of them, because all sides seems to be quite in a mess there.
Stuff like these aren't too surprising sadly.

Alright, I try to be very careful when posting on the issue of Israel, especially since I'm neither Israeli nor Arab, so I have no firsthand experience in the matter.

What I can tell you is that I know many Palestinian Christians who want nothing more than peaceful coexistence with Israel. Neither the Palestinian Christians whom I know nor people who antagonized this boy represent the Palestinian (and certainly not the whole Arab) community in its entirety. The extreme actions of some do not mean peace is impossible.

Furthermore, cruel and antagonistic behavior on the part of some Palestinians does not pardon misconduct on the part of the Israeli military or needless aggression on the part of Netanyahu. Americans and Europeans, unless they are Jewish or Arab, have no direct stake in this conflict, but as citizens of a democratic society, they have the responsibility to understand these situations to the extent that they undersand the impact of their voting decisions.

The issue with anecdotal evidence like the story you've cited is that these stories are one-sided. Information can be easily manipulated and left out. Since people are more likely to empathise with anecdotes than statistics, they have their place in the debate, but with the explicit understanding that the anecdotes represent the experiences of indiviudals and not entire populations.

TL;DR: Injustices commited by some do not pardon the injustices commited by others. Anecdotes about a small group of people do not represent entire populations or ethnicities.

This is a very good example of apeal to emotion.

You are making a case for him for fleeing to another "for expressing his opinion". The problem with that is that you did not state why saying "i support israel" is such a big deal amongst his people.

Saying "i support israel" to them is like saying "i support al-qaeda/nazi germany/ira". If anything you might as well support the right to say "i support isis" in the USA.

And also like the post above this one, this is just an anecdote that does not represent the whole country.

People wanted this kid dead OVER AN OPINION!? That's just screwed up.
I've seen people get mad when others express their opinions, but to actually run someone out of a country is just insane.
The kid wasn't even being a dick, so what's so provoking about his status?

except these people LIVE in israel and have full rights.

they live in some of the best conditions in the middle east, have democracy and are protected from insane regimes like syria and ISIS and yet they still have the nerve to not only compare us to nazis but to hunt down anyone who disagrees with them!

hell, even arabs in the israeli parliament condemned the 16 year old boy calling him a liar and a traitorous filth.

how the hell is that normal?

btw, last time i checked, nazis, racists and similar scum have full freedom of speech in the US, and no one thretens their lives.

no one still answered me how is it possible to achieve peace with a nation that despises us to the point. its not all of them? ok no problem. but its defiantly the majority, otherwise you would see other Arabs supporting him and trying to protect him, but none of that happened.

and second. even if israel did some injustice, there is no way what was done to the kid is understandable.

1. Stop using emotive language (apeal to emotion)
2. The police not bringing justice to their own people does not give a reason to support israel. It just means israel's police are lazy.

yes, the israeli police is notrious for being lazy but it goes to illogical extremes when it comes to dealing with the arab population. because every single time the police goes to an arabic neighborhood to arrest someone, all the residents immidetly go up in arms and start throwing rocks at them.
so naturally the police will try to stay away from incidents like this.

either way the police could not bring the threteners to justice because they were numbered in hundereds, many coming from facebook.

and i didn't try to ask for support for israel, i just want to show what kind of people our nation is dealing with so you that you might consider to stop sympathsizing with them.

also: nice negative karma just for stating facts and asking a couple of questions, so much for "serious debate"
and to think i had hope for this one

I will not sympathise with israel.

And it will be pointless for me to debate which side you should be on, because you won't listen.

Bye.

i didn't try to get you to sympathize with isreal, im trying to get you to stop sympathizing with people who spread blind and fanatical hatred against us and threaten the lives of our people on a daily basis

if you think that it's ok for people to compare israel to ISIS, nazi german and their ilk, especially if they live in israel and enjoy all of its benefits,
and then find it understable to attempt to kill anyone who thinks otheriwse,

then something is terribly wrong here, very, very wrong.

but of course it is ME who isn't listening, amirite?

No you're listening, you just don't get it. The point here is that just because other people are worse does not justify or excuse another wrongdoing.

You also fail to understand the simple concept of comparison. Comparing means that you look at 2 different things and see the similarities and differences. You can compare anything. It's just in these cases the comparison is used to point out similarities between these vilified groups, this does not mean we think they are as bad or worse.

No calm the fuck down. You sound like a child with so much zeal that he forgets simple things, like what comparing is.

Oh hey is a JJ thread.
I wonder how many babies the arabs ate this time.

you seem to fail simple things like what 'compare' is when used in the spesific context. when i said that they compare israel to nazi germany, it means that they for them it's more or less the same thing.
and from some reason some people here its ok to do so.

and ripping on somebody for misusing a word is terribly immature.

as for your first sentense. ok so the other side is worse, you just admitted that, we have some progress now.
so now that we enstablished that the other side refuses to have peace, naturally, action is taken against to so it won't do harm to the other side.

but right these precautionary actions are are viewd as acts of cruel and heartless oppression against a peaceful and abused population,
as if israeli goverment loves spending billions on maintaining that disgusting wall and send unwilling youths to waste 3 years of their lives guarding it and its sorroundings
while in reality these are mandatory actions of self defense and caution against fanatacially hateful and brainwashed people.

that is the point i was trying to prove all this time and from some reason no one seems to get it.

and MDF, about 10 babies, no less.

Jolly Jew, stop. Stop. Your comments are so loaded that they're overflowing and making a mess on the carpet.

I tell jolly jew to stop using emotive language.

He keeps using emotive language.

God damn it

"you seem to fail simple things like what ‘compare’ is when used in the spesific context. when i said that they compare israel to nazi germany, it means that they for them it’s more or less the same thing."

Except it wasn't used in that context and no one ever said those things, the exact quote was…

"Saying “i support israel” to them is like saying “i support al-qaeda/nazi germany/ira”. If anything you might as well support the right to say “i support isis” in the USA."

If you acknowledged his point you would have realized that he never said they were as bad, he was merely saying that to one sides beliefs, they are saying something radical and believe that he was a threat.

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"and ripping on somebody for misusing a word is terribly immature."

Ignoring the fact that you write like an infant and act like one, if someone is using terminology incorrectly and using that in an argument, saying something that is wrong in order to try prove a point then it is acceptable and not immature to call them out on it.

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"but right these precautionary actions are are viewd as acts of cruel and heartless oppression against a peaceful and abused population,
as if israeli goverment loves spending billions on maintaining that disgusting wall and send unwilling youths to waste 3 years of their lives guarding it and its sorroundings
while in reality these are mandatory actions of self defense and caution against fanatacially hateful and brainwashed people."

As for this, like Warriorman pointed out, you are using emotive language without any evidence. And you still continue to act like a lesser of two evils (which is debatable, but for you I am going to just say that Israel isn't as bad so you don't get your panties in a twist) makes it not evil.

"If you acknowledged his point you would have realized that he never said they were as bad, he was merely saying that to one sides beliefs, they are saying something radical and believe that he was a threat."

thats what i was talking about. he said they they belive that standing for israel is like standing for nazis/isis for them.

and he formed it as a way to understand why they thretened to kill him, which in fact is not reasonble or understanble at all.

and im not trying to present israel as the lesser of two evils, im trying to present israel and not evil.

i can give you plenty of evidence, just ask what to provide it for.

so far no counter to my argument was presented other that calling me out for using emotive language and saying "just because one side is bad, the other side shouldn't"
which im terribly sorry, sounds like "if someone punches in the face, dont hit back or you too will be considered a criminal.

i don't see how israel can defend itself without retaliating, as said in the OP if someone does know of a way, please say it.

You know you are quoting an anecdote to make a case against the arabs.

So i'm going to play your game

I don't care how loudly the people shouted at this arab kid before he fleed, this kid Was beaten to the point his face was deformed

"and he formed it as a way to understand why they thretened to kill him, which in fact is not reasonble or understanble at all."

Unreasonable? Yes. Understandable? Yes also.

The point is that you have to understand people don't all think the same and there is cultural and historical context for it. The point I will make is that it requires those individuals from both sides to get past the differences and revise the conflict to come up with a peaceful resolution. Retaliation is necessary in some cases. As you said yourself you need people to respect each other and instead of taking your heavily biased opinion and complain about how bad the other people, why don't you become an actual advocate for peace? Why don't you learn about the causes of the conflicts to try understand and empathize with those you don't agree with? Why don't you get a book on grammar while you're at it?

The key thing to take away is that this stuff does happen, but why not actually find out how you could prevent it rather then bitch about Arabs.

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"so far no counter to my argument was presented other that calling me out for using emotive language and saying “just because one side is bad, the other side shouldn’t”
which im terribly sorry, sounds like "if someone punches in the face, dont hit back or you too will be considered a criminal."

No it's more like someone hits you in the face so you hit them back then you hit their friends and family and then you hit random people that the other guy knows because you fear they will side with them.

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"i can give you plenty of evidence, just ask what to provide it for."

That's not how it works, you claim something then back it up with evidence. If I start a thread called Jolly Jew is an annoying little kid who can't even press shift or caps lock, I will provide evidence of your awful posts you made over the years. I don't say nothing and then when someone asks me to prove it, I don't say "Oh ask me what you want me to prove I have evidence I swear."

U.S. and the rest of NATO should just stop supporting Israel until the Jewish and the Muslims learn to get along

ok no problem.

"An Israeli police spokeswoman said the footage was heavily edited and altered and that it did not represent the events accurately."
quoted from the article you linked.

what wasn't shown in that footage, is that kid throwing rocks at the police, or the other mass kids who were throwing rocks and molotovs at passing cars and the light train.

quote from this article http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4538531,00.

ממג"ב נמסר אתמול בתגובה כי "מדובר בסרטון ערוך ומגמתי שאינו מייצג את התרחשות הדברים. במהלך הפרות סדר אלימות באזור מזרח ירושלים, מאות מתפרעים, חלקם רעולי פנים, יידו לעבר הכוחות מטענים, בקבוקי תבערה, זיקוקים ואבנים. כתוצאה מהאלימות הקשה שהייתה במקום כ-15 לוחמים ושוטרים נפצעו. מבירור ראשוני של פרטי האירוע המוצג בסרטון עולה כי מדובר במעצר של שישה רעולי פנים, שעל גופם של שלושה מהם התגלתה סכין, ובמהלך מעצרם התנגדו ואף תקפו את הלוחמים. יחד עם זאת, נסיבות המקרה נבדקות"

"MAGAV stated in response: "This is an edited and Tendentious video that doesn't represent how things happened. During violent riots in an area of eastern Jerusalem, hundereds of rioters, some of them masked, threw molotov cocktails, fireworks and rocks at the police force.
As a result of the harsh violece, about 15 policemen and fighters were injured. From the inital check of the incdent's details, presented in the footage, it turned out it was during the the act of aprehanding six hoodlums that had knives discovered on their personel. During their arrest, they resisted and even assualted the officers. with all this in mind however the circumstances of the event are still being investigated."

im not the best translator but im pretty sure that i did a better job than what google translate can do.

so here we go. i think this incident speaks for itself about my topic.

As for spider-byte: the mere fact that you find it understanble that the arabs view israel and nazi germany in the same light is simply outragous. and is the root of this whole conflict.
to consider israel – a democratic state with full rights to all of its legal residents no matter their religion or ethnicity to nazi germany, is downright ignorance. and what fuels this conflict.

i know the history of the region well and i why this war is still going, the arabs (most of them) refuse to live with jews in the same land. this was very weill established in Hamas' doctorine, and Abu Mazen's demand that "the future palastinian state must be clean of jews"
this was the case since 1921, when the first riots against jews started.

so i would glady empthize with those who disagree with me, but that would require me to kill myself and my whole family in the process to make it valid.

as for this: "No it’s more like someone hits you in the face so you hit them back then you hit their friends and family and then you hit random people that the other guy knows because you fear they will side with them."

now look who uses emotive language. but i digress.
Israeli forces NEVER intetionally murder innocent civillians (although i highly doubt that Hamascolaborators can be considered as such). they always target either their launchers or their commanders, which ironically always reside right next highliy populated areas, schools, hospitals, and internationals hotels are as shown in this video.

so no, you are analogy doesn't work at all, unless you know of a way to strike tiny targets with 100% accuracy.

again GJ on the negative karma, because serious debate is all about shitting on anyone who has an unpopular opinion, GJ indeed.

There was a riot in Jerusalem. I don't see how that speaks for your topic

ah, i forgot to link the video that shows how Hamas uses the Gazan population as human shields, and i cant edit the post, so here it is:

there is plenty more from where that came from

"the mere fact that you find it understanble that the arabs view israel and nazi germany in the same light is simply outragous. and is the root of this whole conflict.
to consider israel – a democratic state with full rights to all of its legal residents no matter their religion or ethnicity to nazi germany, is downright ignorance. and what fuels this conflict."

Yet again, you assume compare means that they are the same. The point is that I can understand why these people hate Israel which is fine protecting it's own citizens but guns down more innocents then their actual enemies and pretending they hide in schools, or that even blowing up these places is justified because 10 of their enemies were hiding there so those 30 children (this isn't meant to be emotive as it is trying to prove the point that killing more innocent people then not is just wrong). I understand why they hate them, do I agree with them? No. Once you understand them you can gain the knowledge which can help you fix this mess.

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"so i would glady empthize with those who disagree with me, but that would require me to kill myself and my whole family in the process to make it valid."

OK this is ignorant just like you claim everyone else is, hypocrite. Not only do you not understand the concepts of simple things like comparison, but also empathy. Even if it was the case with your ignorant statement, empathy is knowing how they feel. If you considered them as people and not stereotypes, you might be less stupid.

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"as for this: 'No it’s more like someone hits you in the face so you hit them back then you hit their friends and family and then you hit random people that the other guy knows because you fear they will side with them."
now look who uses emotive language. but i digress."

That's bullshit. This was not even using any emotive language.

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"Israeli forces NEVER intetionally murder innocent civillians (although i highly doubt that Hamascolaborators can be considered as such). they always target either their launchers or their commanders, which ironically always reside right next highliy populated areas, schools, hospitals, and internationals hotels are as shown in this video.

so no, you are analogy doesn’t work at all, unless you know of a way to strike tiny targets with 100% accuracy."

Blatant lies. These people were ordered to attack regardless of whether there was a threat. Also do you think this is right and justified? I don't expect 100% accuracy, I expect them to have more then 30%. Don't claim these people don't intentionally aim at them, that's just outright an obvious lie.

@spiderbyte
well to be fair, 30% accuracy in combat means you're a marksman (assuming were talking about infantry here)

As for bombing, even with modern computers, hitting a target couple of kilometers away with bombs can always go awry, even a slight inaccuracy can pile up and end up hitting something…. about a kilometer away. Even if there is a direct hit, the fragmentation and flying debris could cause unwanted collateral damage.

@JollyJew

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here, you're basically bashing on the Muslim population in the Middle East and leaving little room for discussion.

But it's the fact they are ordered to bomb and murder these places. Plus I thought he meant civilian casualties, which are still disproportionate.

Were talking about fighting in urban enviroment, they could be fighting with swords and spears and there still would be lots of civilian casualties.

As for IDF purposely bombing civilian buildings, I kinda don't want to go over that topic because it could go into the "ZOMG JEWS PLAN TO DEPOPULATE THE WORLD AND TAKE IT OVER" area.

But i'll take a look at the video when I can

no. it is absolutly not understanble for legitmate citizens of israel to consider it as bad as nazi germany. it could be understanble for the Gazan population but not from the people who recieve full rights and protection from israel and have successfull life thanks to it.
but not only that, they attempt to kill anyone who disagrees with that belief, in any other state it would be considered as an act of treason.

my claim about emphizastion is not ignorant, it was sarcastic. because i know how they feel, they feel they want me dead for being a jew that lives in a land they claim jews are not alowed to live in.

and that video, oh boy, what a delicious cherry.

you, and apeartly the "soldiers" in the video seem to have absolutly no knoledge of what Urban combat is like: every single house can contain dozen of terrorists, every window can sport a machinegun. every car in the vacinity can be a boobytrap or a suicide bomber.

so naturally, because the sodliers do not want to get killed, they destroy all these pontetinal threats.
all of the civilians had to be evacuated from the area at least a dozen hours prior because the air force always rained down paper messeges saying that the area will come under attack. as shown in this artcle:
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/IDF-alerts-northern-Gaza-residents-to-evacuate-homes-362956
any civilian that stays in the combat zone after being told to evacuate is responsible for his own demise.

their use of the word 'cleanse' is laugble. it hebrew it is a commonplace milltery term which means to clear the objective of enemy combatants.
when they were ordered to 'cleanse the neighborhood' they were ordered to clear it out of the terrorist threat.

and for the record i dont recall any other millatery force ever handle urban combat in any different way, especially when the civilian population were hostile.

also, very nice job on completely ignoring the video showcasing how Hamas uses its own population as meat shields

as for OTL. , im trying to defend my country from these appalling tags as 'genocidal' 'apartehied' and 'similar to nazi germany' as people claim to to be.
i dont see how exposing the crimes of the arab population against israel is 'bashing all the muslims in the middle east' i hold nothing against them.

"no. it is absolutly not understanble for legitmate citizens of israel to consider it as bad as nazi germany. it could be understanble for the Gazan population but not from the people who recieve full rights and protection from israel and have successfull life thanks to it.
but not only that, they attempt to kill anyone who disagrees with that belief, in any other state it would be considered as an act of treason."

You are completely missing the point, that's not why they're comparing them to these bad groups, they are comparing them because Israel is basically a shit-hole full of awful people in charge/power and even in their defense force.

You don't get it at all and you refuse to even look at more objectively or from an outside point of view, because you assume everyone hates you because you're a Jew instead of actually considering any other reason why they hate you.

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"my claim about emphizastion is not ignorant, it was sarcastic. because i know how they feel, they feel they want me dead for being a jew that lives in a land they claim jews are not alowed to live in."

You should know that sarcasm is not easy to tell over the internet or text in general. Plus I don't support either side, does that make me want to kill you and take your land, because you're a Jew? Are you so well and truly blinded by your bias to not be able to fathom that Israel is doing everything or at least some things totally wrong?

Because I think you are, and that's pretty ignorant. Also please don't provide that bullshit that you would like to be convinced otherwise because you're not.

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"you, and apeartly the “soldiers” in the video seem to have absolutly no knoledge of what Urban combat is like: every single house can contain dozen of terrorists, every window can sport a machinegun. every car in the vacinity can be a boobytrap or a suicide bomber.
so naturally, because the sodliers do not want to get killed, they destroy all these pontetinal threats."

Every house could contain hundreds of innocents, let's just blast them off the face of the earth because they might be an enemy, and don't actually try to sort it out in a different way or just find out if there is something there, because apparently you and the soldiers don't know that in war you risk your life.

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"so naturally, because the sodliers do not want to get killed, they destroy all these pontetinal threats.
all of the civilians had to be evacuated from the area at least a dozen hours prior because the air force always rained down paper messeges saying that the area will come under attack. as shown in this artcle:"

Oh well I mean it's totally the Israeli right to just blow up peoples homes and leave them homeless, because hey, they warned them they would. Also where the fuck are they going to go? The Israeli's have completely blocked them in. At best this is just telling them they are going to ruin their lives or end them before it happens.

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"their use of the word ‘cleanse’ is laugble. it hebrew it is a commonplace milltery term which means to clear the objective of enemy combatants.
when they were ordered to ‘cleanse the neighborhood’ they were ordered to clear it out of the terrorist threat."

Provide evidence that is a common term and not referring to any of sort of cleanse, general. Because it seemed to put nerves into soldiers.

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"also, very nice job on completely ignoring the video showcasing how Hamas uses its own population as meat shields"

Also very nice job not realizing that even if all of the people had a meatshield, that wouldn't make up all the civilian death.

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"im trying to defend my country from these appalling tags as ‘genocidal’ ‘apartehied’ and ‘similar to nazi germany’ as people claim to to be."

No one here said that, thus you are defending against perceived attacks and arguments again. Plus the definition of genocide is "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."

Are they wiping out these people systematically? It would appear so if they aren't even sorry about all the people they "didn't mean to kill" (because ulterior motives are out the question?).

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"i dont see how exposing the crimes of the arab population against israel is ‘bashing all the muslims in the middle east’ i hold nothing against them."

Yet you have claimed they all want to blow up and kill themselves, kill you and attack your country. You don't even show concern for the innocents.

Why the fuck can't us at KYM just exterminate you, not for being a Jew, but for being one of the shittiest users on this site from day 1. You're are so bad that people can't even take you seriously anymore because of everything stupid you posted. We have a saying "A Jolly Jew post." you're that bad.

Quit while your ahead.

ok, first and foremost. you seem to have absolutly no clue of how wars are waged. especially in urban combat

when an army enters a hostile terretory, it doen't have the time and recourses to knock on every door of every appartment in every building to check if there are still civillians in there there. it would more likeley result in a massive increase in casualties. the civillians should not be there are this point.

they should have evacuated when they were told to, if they stay in the combat zone regardless their death is their fault.
don't tell me there is no where to run, there was plenty of places to run, like deeper into Gaza. and israel certnily did not block them off, please provide proof to israeli forces actually blocking fleeing people and forcing to stay in the combat zone, you will find none.

an army cannot possible start thinking about the property damage it causes, because of the stated above reasons.
when an armed force invades urban terretory, its job is to destroy the objective with every possible mean available and reduce friendly deaths to a bare minimum. not cater to the hostile unarmed population and its property

war is a risk of life only when its a must. no one will throw their life away just so they won't have to blow up a house that has a high chance that has terrorists waitng to ambush them.
if they suspect a house containts terrorists they will bring it down.
million USD of property is not worth human life.

thats how ALL wars are fought in urban combat areas, no exception.

if the Gazan dont want their homes wrecked and their lives put to damger maybe they shouldn't have elected Hamas to be the ruler. if they didn't want their homes to be destroyed maybe they shouldn't let terrorists set up launchers in their back yards, hospitals, schools and UN buildings.
but they do let Hamas do all of this, so it's entirely their fault.

its really sad that i have to go into so much detail about such simple things

if you shoot rockets at someone, dont be suprised he will shoot rockets back. any other country would simply level Gaza to the ground, because no sovreign state will tolorate constant missle attacks on its civil population.

so far it seems that the mere act of defending itself and retaliating is a war crime when done by israel.
ISIS targets being bombarded day and night without a single provacation against the US, oh yeah, the US was provoked when they killed their POW, but that's so much worse than raining rockets down on innocent people for no real reason.
shame on israel, how dare they retaliate to 100 rockets a day launched at their cities.

here's the proof that טיהור as was used by the so called soldiers, is a milltery term.

http://www.morfix.co.il/%D7%98%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A8

"You are completely missing the point, that’s not why they’re comparing them to these bad groups, they are comparing them because Israel is basically a shit-hole full of awful people in charge/power and even in their defense force.
You don’t get it at all and you refuse to even look at more objectively or from an outside point of view, because you assume everyone hates you because you’re a Jew instead of actually considering any other reason why they hate you."

oh wow, if that's not apeal to emtion that i don't know what it. but i digress.
first of all, you know NOTHING about israel if they call it a shit-hole and find that comparing it it to nazi germany is understanble because of that.

no i don't assume that everyone hates me because im a jew, i assume that the local arabs hate me because im a jew. this whole entire conflict started, and continues to this very day because arabs refuse to let jews "live in their land". even though they never actually owned the terretory outside of their own houses and farmlands.
that's its summery. i'v studied the histroy very well back in highschool.

And to this day, anyone from their ranks who dares to suggest that arabs can peacefully live togather with jews in the same place is consider a traitor that should be killed,

even SPIRITUAL LEADERS and afraid to speak out about this because they are genuinly afraid they will be murdered for doing so. like in this article:

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4578031,00.html – use google translate for this one, its hebrew

and even kids who dare to think otherwise deserve to die in their eyes, just like i brought up in the OP

so i know the other side very well.

and for the record, yes, no one in this thread said that israel is genocidal/war criminal etc. but its right now a very popular thing to say on the internet, hence why i made this thread

"Why the fuck can’t us at KYM just exterminate you, not for being a Jew, but for being one of the shittiest users on this site from day 1. You’re are so bad that people can’t even take you seriously anymore because of everything stupid you posted. We have a saying “A Jolly Jew post.” you’re that bad.
Quit while your ahead"

oh wow, just wow, go down to the wost possible low and insult me personally, well played. because that's how serious debate is being handled. i won't stoop down to your level. so i can say is that this arguement is over for you, you should let adults handle this now.

Honestly spider-byte, no matter how much evidence you give the jew, he will not listen.

Because he is being blinded by his own anger which you can tell through his emotive language. I experienced firsthand what it is like to be so angry you don't listen to anyone.

And jolly jew, if you are unwilling to think for yourself then you cannot change.

This discussion is just going around in circles. And has been for the past week. You all know how these threads go. You all know where this one is going

Is there any value in continuing this?

oh, so im still not listening even though i took seriously every single arguement you threw at me. im still using emotive language even though wasted my time to find evidence to counter your claims.

im unwilling to think for myself because i refuse to admit that my country is evil? give me a break.
so far, no one gave me a proper answer to my questions in the OP.

this is hopless.

so much for "serious debate"

well we can start by suggesting answers to my questions in the OP, which so far no one bothered to answer.

I'm not going to bother arguing anymore except I want to bring these last few points up.

"if the Gazan dont want their homes wrecked and their lives put to damger maybe they shouldn’t have elected Hamas to be the ruler. if they didn’t want their homes to be destroyed maybe they shouldn’t let terrorists set up launchers in their back yards, hospitals, schools and UN buildings.
but they do let Hamas do all of this, so it’s entirely their fault."

Wait, so now they all bad for not opposing terrorists the people who use TERROR to get what they want. So I see, it's just like we should have killed all people from Afghanistan because they are complacent to the Taliban. Sound logic there, mate.

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"if you shoot rockets at someone, dont be suprised he will shoot rockets back. any other country would simply level Gaza to the ground, because no sovreign state will tolorate constant missle attacks on its civil population."

No they wouldn't. Unlike Israel, most other countries understand the threat isn't the nation itself now. They go for the enemy within the nation, not random civilians. While civilian casualties are expected, soldiers are punished for war crimes and have to at least try not murder everyone in sight. The point here is that they are doing what is probably the right thing, just in a backwards and unproductive way. And there are still some idiots that support this stupid way of fighting.

Think about it this way. If Israel was truly doing nothing wrong, how and why are people all over the world condemning their actions? I'm pretty sure it's hard for a lot of people around the world to disagree with a country that is truly doing everything right.

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"if they suspect a house containts terrorists they will bring it down."

The problem is, like you, they assume all of them are a potential threat, with no actual evidence. They are allowed do this shit on suspicion, that's not right.

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"million USD of property is not worth human life."

This is just funny because not only does it imply you don't see the other people as human, you think that it is not worth a small force of soldiers to go into an area and go into a house to take down more terrorists and have less civilian casualties but to instead blow up a house with innocent people inside because they might harbour some bad people. I honestly don't get how someone who doesn't care about anyone but his own people expects others to listen.

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"And to this day, anyone from their ranks who dares to suggest that arabs can peacefully live togather with jews in the same place is consider a traitor that should be killed,
even SPIRITUAL LEADERS and afraid to speak out about this because they are genuinly afraid they will be murdered for doing so. like in this article"

What about all the people fighting back because the IDF murdered there innocent families, huh. It's almost as if you don't see the fact not all of them are doing it for those reasons. You are assuming all your enemies are religious zealots and then you claim you don't think that but continue to contradict yourself.

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"oh wow, just wow, go down to the wost possible low and insult me personally, well played. because that’s how serious debate is being handled. i won’t stoop down to your level. so i can say is that this arguement is over for you, you should let adults handle this now."

What you have to understand is that quite frankly no one gives a damn about your opinions. You can't make them. You can try convince them, but your arguments are heavily biased and you fail to realize that, you honestly refuse any other point of view and then when other people give you reasons why you are wrong in their eyes, you act like the infant you are and pretend that no one is actually answering you. It's akin to closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears.

Now please child, grow up and learn how to use grammar and learn how to write in English. Your 12 year old mind can't deal with this stuff, go back to playing pokemon.

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"this is hopless.
so much for “serious debate”

Yes this thread does lack people hopping around.

You threw serious debate out the door when you made the thread, little boy.

What is your question anyway? Having peace between the Jewish and the Muslims? All you have been doing is saying that the Muslims are evil people who wan't to kill all Jews, thats not the attitude of someone who wan't peace, thats the attitude of someone who wan't to keep fighting with their "enemies".

I can understand that Jews can get frustrated by the Hamas or some other Muslim groups, but if you truly wan't peace then you have to start understanding the other side. Why are they so desperate to kill you? I doubt its just because they're made up of 140% evil.

"No they wouldn’t. Unlike Israel, most other countries understand the threat isn’t the nation itself now. They go for the enemy within the nation, not random civilians. While civilian casualties are expected, soldiers are punished for war crimes and have to at least try not murder everyone in sight. The point here is that they are doing what is probably the right thing, just in a backwards and unproductive way. And there are still some idiots that support this stupid way of fighting"

yeah, send soldiers into hostile terretory where every terrorists can jump out of any corner, and rain down heavy MG fire from any window, WITHOUT air support, artillery support and tank support.
tell me one nation that did this retarded thing and i will change your mind.

and for the THRID time, these houses were all supposed to be EMPTY of civilians, anyone who didn't want to fight, had PLENTY of time to flee, anyone who didn't is ok with sharing a room with armed terrorists and a soon-to-be casualty of war.

"Wait, so now they all bad for not opposing terrorists the people who use TERROR to get what they want. So I see, it’s just like we should have killed all people from Afghanistan because they are complacent to the Taliban. Sound logic there, mate"

first, Hamas is a terrorist group against israel, not gaza, as they were democratically elected to rule the region. it has the population's nearly full support.

AGAIN if they are ok with terrorists using their back yards and hospitals for launch sites THEY SHOULD NOT BE THERE. they didn't force anyone to stay in their homes. they stayed out of their free will.
furthermore, they gathered around these launchers to watch them, go.

do you really want to tell me that afghan citizens just stayed in taliban warzones? no, they got the hell out of there, and they still got killed because of missfires.

"This is just funny because not only does it imply you don’t see the other people as human, you think that it is not worth a small force of soldiers to go into an area and go into a house to take down more terrorists and have less civilian casualties but to instead blow up a house with innocent people inside because they might harbour some bad people. I honestly don’t get how someone who doesn’t care about anyone but his own people expects others to listen."

another brilliant display of absolute ignorance about warfare in urban combat.
A. as mentioned already, no civilians were supposed to be there in the first place.
B. after the tanks/artillery fired at said house, the soldiers will rush in and clear it of any remaining threats after some of them died and the rest are supprssed and shell-shocked.
C. and yes, if it's possible i wholeheartedly believe that its better to blow up an entire house than to breach it. i don't want any of our soldiers to die. and civilians are not supposed to die because
they SHOULDN'T BE THERE.

"The problem is, like you, they assume all of them are a potential threat, with no actual evidence. They are allowed do this shit on suspicion, that’s not right."

the army has intelligence, it has recon, it has eavesdroppers and spies, when they suspect there is a threat somewhere, it will be very wise to listen to them.

"Think about it this way. If Israel was truly doing nothing wrong, how and why are people all over the world condemning their actions? I’m pretty sure it’s hard for a lot of people around the world to disagree with a country that is truly doing everything right."

if jews aren't actually murdering babies to make matzhos out of them why did most of the world belive so 200 years go?
if all the wars in israel were done out of self defense why do people believe its the most aggressive country in the middle east?
if israel is a democratic country with equal rights to all religions, ethnicitys, and sexual orientations why do people believe its an apartheid state?

same answers to all of those questions: people are prone to believing to lies and biased media.

"What about all the people fighting back because the IDF murdered there innocent families, huh. It’s almost as if you don’t see the fact not all of them are doing it for those reasons. You are assuming all your enemies are religious zealots and then you claim you don’t think that but continue to contradict yourself."

i have never said ONCE that their hatred is tied with religion i never said. they are not religious zealots.
being hateful and racist has nothing to do with it. because i just mentioned how even their religious leaders can be easily killed off if they say there should be peace with israel.
as i said their main reason to fight is because israel has no right to exist on 'their lands' and that no one but other arabs. again, i say this after i STUDIED the conflict for 2 years.

but hey, they could somehow be understood if they actually fought other armed forces, but in fact their main targets are old men and childeren.

"What about all the people fighting back because the IDF murdered there innocent families,"

huh, killing innocent people for revenge? ah that is SUCH a noble deed now, god bless.

with that logic, Gaza would be nothing but a nuclear wasteland by now.

"What you have to understand is that quite frankly no one gives a damn about your opinions. You can’t make them. You can try convince them, but your arguments are heavily biased and you fail to realize that, you honestly refuse any other point of view and then when other people give you reasons why you are wrong in their eyes, you act like the infant you are and pretend that no one is actually answering you. It’s akin to closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears."

soooo let me get this straight:
my argument is biased, because i base them around facts.

i refuse other points of view, even though i took my time to look at all the evidence thrown at me, and provide counter evidence.

i act like an infant because i disagree with people.
im closing my eyes an ears even though i bother to read every single one of your atrocious and obnoxious posts infested with misinformation, and try explaining you errors politely and constructively.

and then you stoop to the lowest possible low and insult me personally, how sad and pathetic.
you call me an immature kid, when you are the only one who acts like one.
i presented facts and evidence before you and you dismissed them by insulting me some more.
you are the only baby here, and it appears you also soiled your diaper. again. let adults handle this argument, your time has clearly passed.

first. muslim =\= arab. just FYI

now, why do the arabs want to kill us so badly? no, not because they are evil.
no one is born evil.

but they can educated to become this. – they are are brainwashed.

from a very young age, they are told to hate jews. their textbooks, teachers and parents preach that jews are spawn of hell, descendants of apes and pigs, that killing jews is a good thing. i shit you not, these are real things that are being told to them. here's a tiny example:

the arabs are indeed victims – of the sick propaganda and hate machine they are forced into.
im truly sad for them. all thanks for Hamas and Fatah.

i personally believe that peace can only be achieved when these groups will be obliterated. and that all of the local arabs will enter the Israeli education system.

i dont see any other way it can work. if you have a better idea, please present it.

"huh, killing innocent people for revenge? ah that is SUCH a noble deed now, god bless."

I'm sorry but you are one of the worst and quite frankly stupidest people I have encountered. Your whole argument is that it's right for Israel to fight back but when they fight back because they lost everything they have ever had, you criticize them for revenge.

Now child, please stop posting, the grown ups are sick of you. You're not even worth the text anymore. I'd rather talk to my 7 year nephew about the hypocrisy you spew, he'd understand, but then again he's older.

That's enough.