Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

This is pretty much just to redirect the growing debate on karma going on in this thread before it gets out of hand and this discussion kind of deserves its own thread. Opinions?

I think that people care way too much about karma, and avoid doing things like voicing their opinion or making certain posts if the post they are making could get downvotes. Karma is a horrible system, and should be removed in my opinion.

I disagree the karma system is the problem. The problem people are complaining about is that users become popular and people get double standards other users don't. The problem will not change if we remove the karma system. It will just the same thing without the system.

I am 100% for the removal of karma. I find that the removal of karma would remove a lot of problems. It would cause it's own problems, but I think the problems it would solve are greater. However, this is a thing the mods have discussed before, and I'll quote you RandomMan's criticisms. Worth noting, this was originally on the topic of the comment section, but I feel it's equally relevant to the forums (except the average intelligence part. Maybe.)

-Comments can’t receive downvotes anymore, people can post the most retarded and/or stupid opinions and easily get away with it. We’ll never truly know how many people disagree with them because after one person countered them, it’s no longer necessary for anyone else to reply and bring up the same points. It generates the idea that only individuals disagree with shit comments, and not a majority.

-Comments can’t receive upvotes anymore. You can make the best arguments ever, but you’ll never receive praise for it. People who disagree are more likely to reply, because people who agree don’t reply to just say “I agree”. You’ll feel singled out and will be less likely to share your quality opinion the next time.

-Comments can’t get buried anymore. Post the biggest shit imaginable, it will be visible forever anyways.

-Shitstorms ensue. You know the average intelligence of our comment section. If you can’t vote on posts anymore, sure you’ll have more replies. But with the comment section, this will result in more arguments over dumb things, thus more insults, thus more shitstorms. I rather have idiots hiding behind a downvote button that doesn’t really do big damage, than see their idiocy out in the open.

All fair criticisms to be honest.

like spider-byte saide its not about karma in of itself its just the shit people will catch for their opinions

No. To, uh, put it bluntly. And in less than 30 characters.
Karma is a popularity contest that promotes circlejerking and ostracizes independent thought. There is no legitimate reason for its existence on this website, other than to serve as a method for bashing anyone with a dissenting voice into oblivion.

Karma is love.
Karma is life.

Okay, if we're going to have a thread protesting karma, we should probably not use karma in the thread.

I think karma might stop people who are new to the site from voicing their actual opinions to avoid having their karma in the negatives.

I would upvote that but. Yeah.

Wow! Those are good reasons. Well, I was doubtful about karma's usefulness before, but these points are pretty solid. I definitely wouldn't want lots of this junk happening. Well, I've made my decision. Despite its constant abuse I think it's more useful than not. At least I'm convinced personally. I'll still see what the other side has to say though.

EDIT: Sorry guys… I've kind of been the one who's been upvoting everything. It's just kind of habitual for me. If I see a post that's even remotely good or at least not terrible, I upvote it.

Oh, the Irony…

Agreed. All it does is encourage conformity and circlejerking, by both promoting it with upvotes and shaming (kind of dramatic, but yes) those who won't conform with downvotes. I see no reason for it to still be used.

Mixed opinions.
Basically, if people were smart about it, it would be fine. Upvoted posts would be posts that have good advice, are helpful, or contribute to the conversation/thread/article. Downvotes ones would be spam, posts encouraging rule breaking, and arguments that amount to "u r gey." This does still happen at times.

However, downvotes now are used more of a way to show you disagree, without having to give a reason why. Disagreeable opinions that may be well founded and argued are hidden, just because people disagree. Random 21 has gone into the comment section and tried to bring this up, and well, it worked well as an example of people down voting to show they didn't like what they were being told. There's also the useless comments that get moved to the top that are only complaining about things like "another photofad" or "Don strikes again" which do nothing to help contribute to the article or conversation.

In the end, I do like it when good posts are moved to the top, and like it when legitimately stupid posts are buried. However, there are plenty of instances where the opposite has happened. I'm not going to choose a position, but if the use of karma does not improve, I'm personally fine if it is gotten rid of.

Edit: As for in the forums: I don't think it has been as abused. Maybe everyone gains a few IQ points coming here, or the stupid people just tend to stay away. Either way, I'm with spider. I upvote stuff that I think is worth reading, sorta as a way to tell others it's worth your time to read this. Of course, that only really helps if the thread is in one of the serious boards.

Guys, stop it, this is getting ridiculous now…

Oh boy, we really going to get into this debate again?

What Karma Does:

• Karma allows Pseudo Moderation Powers to be granted to the users, and control the quality of the content being posted by rewarding good content and punishing bad content.
• Karma allows people to judge the overall content (Ratio of Received Karma) and the overall mentality (Ratio of Given Karma) of each individual user.
• Karma allows people to give their opinions anonymously.
  Keep in mind, previously before a voting system was implemented, a lot of times people had to verbally demonstrate why another post was stupid.

Know Your Meme Forums are a Closed Circle Community. We only have about 50 users active in the forums during each generation. As opposed to the Comments Section, which is an Open Circle Community. Because of that, the forums are actually very mindful about what people or content they do and do not want and will filter out said behavior. Karma has been used in that way to keep positive members in, and negative members out. Had this system been implimented into the Comments Section the same time it was implimented in the forums, we might have been able to maintain quality control.

Now then, why Karma is a problem.

• Karma is based on an opinionated system. And uses a crowd to judge somebodies character. If a person has high Karma, that person thinks everyone likes them. They can get over their head about it and become an obnoxious brat.
• The Closed Circle System is both a good and a bad thing in this situation. On one hand, it does promote a positive mindset in the forums. On the other hand, it can be just as easily abused. It doesn't matter how hateful your comment is, if you have friends here they will upvote your posts no matter what. This is why Oldfags oftentimes get away with being complete assholes and not be downvoted to hell.
• Because it's anonymous, it can be abused. Stalkers mindlessly upvoting or downvoting certain users because they like or hate them. Or people using alternate accounts to promote themselves. Or the previously mentioned "use freinds to get lots-o-votes.

The system would actually be just fine in an open circle community, where very few friendships can be formed and there is so many people comeing and going it literally doesn't matter. Well, not our open circle community anyways.

Now for my opinion. Anyone who says the Karma System should be removed entirely is a complete idiot. Remove Voting and you suddenly have many people verbally assrapeing the newbie for being an idiot. Remove Overall Stats from the userpages then we lose our incentive system.

My stance on it is this:

Karma is a way people use to Self Identify on the website. And really, with everyone reaching max stats on their titles within just a few months, it's understandable. Karma is the self identity system that lasts FOREVER.

That's the thing. We can't allow these stats to last forever, or have forever affect us both positively and negatively. Give us another Forever Satistics System that actually describes what the person actually does around here.

I suggest one both of the following:

• Only Display RECENT Karma on somebodies profile. Maybe a 6 Month to Year Period. This removes all Forever Statistics that are Opinionated.

OR AND

• Create another system that rewards people for doing things other than posting good material. This could involve adding an easy to use Title Tree where you will be able to see all of your titles for each category they post in. With increasing benchmarks as people level up. Titles nobody has gotten yet. Something to strive for OTHER THAN Karma. This will give us a more comprehensive forever statistic.

Were you ass raped as a newbie?

I feel the pros far outweigh the cons on this issue. I'd much rather have a circle jerk and post "funny" reaction images for the sake of karma-whoring than have shitposts and spamposts run amok in the forums. I feel karma in many ways helps keep our community in check but since those advantages are way less apparent than the disadvantages everyone only sees karma as a bad thing. I vote for karma staying.

Okay, okay, before I touch the ad hominem area, karma has been on the website for a good four years. What evidence do you have that shows the removal of karma will trigger more verbal attacks, or members losing the incentive to do more good?

You already have the pac-man chart on your profile to show how much you contribute. This system , which has proven to sometimes misrepresent the quality of your contributions, does more harm than good.

I agree with the consensus that karma, because it shows up on your profile, might cause you to hesitate about posting what you honestly think. Thumbs up/down from comments don't show up on your profile, and can only be seen on the page where you commented. I wouldn't mind a karma system like that, where you can still upvote and downvote a post, but there's nothing on your profile about it. I think the only time I've ever tried to whore for karma was in the karma whoring thread, other than that I just try to be funny and clever, and if people like it then so be it.

@Reggie
I think it's the fact that only forum karma shows up on your profile is part of the reason that the forums award karma so sparsely. Comment karma is getting to the point, if not past the point, of abuse, so I don't think making the forums like that would do much good.

Thanks for posting those R21, saves me the trouble.

But overal, I'm for the staying of karma. It's exactly because people care about karma that it has the desired effect. We've all seen the "why was I/he downvoted?" posts. It bothers people to receive negative, and they like to get positive, as trivial as it may be. And they adapt to what gets them the desired karma.

Once users grow older, they discover karma is useless, and no longer care about their own karma or that of others, because they grew adapted to the site. But for new members, it's an easy way to adapt to the community.

And in the end, if you believe karma is pointless, then having the system stay or gone shouldn't affect you personally.

Personally I don't think that karma itself is a bad thing. I think users just care too much about it. You've got to keep in mind that being downvoted doesn't actually do anything other than show disagreement. It doesn't mean that people hate you or that anything bad will happen. Now I'm not saying that you can post what ever you want and never make enemies, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the karma system.
Now if we must do something about it I would agree with the proposal to remove it from the profile page as it's a permanent reminder about people's disagreement. But I must stress, it's only disagreement. There's nothing to be scared of.

A list of reasons that karma should be removed/won't hurt a thing from being removed:
1. Shitposts are nearly always someone posting something they think is funny, in order to get karma. If you want proof of that, I'd suggest looking through any given thread in the past.
2. If someone were to make a post worthy of being buried, a mod can just remove it.
3. Without karma, users will be forced to voice their opinions with words or simply not speak, which will encourage discussion of topics rather than unexplained +1 or -1's.
4. Users will not be able to make uneducated assessments as to another user's personality or worth based on their karma if it is removed.
5. Users will no longer be able to wear their karma amount as some sort of badge attesting to their greatness.
6. Karma allows abuse through group downvoting, hiding otherwise acceptable posts.

@RandomMan's comment on users that think karma is pointless:
If something has no point, it is fair to argue that it should be removed to reduce clutter, but the issue is not that users think it is pointless as much as that it is a problem, which is why it is a talking point.

P.S. Stop using the karma system on this post please, I am advocating its removal, if you agree, post that you agree and why.

I was very against the implementation of karma when it was first introduced, for the exact reasons people are against it now. It only causes circle jerks and hivemind mentality.

I feel like if a system can not redeem itself after four years of existence, it's about time for massive reform or total removal. Karma is not used for its main intention, and because it's anonymous, it never will be.

I see no negatives for its deletion.

It bothers people to receive negative, and they like to get positive, as trivial as it may be. And they adapt to what gets them the desired karma.

How exactly is this a good thing? Your idea of total conformity isn't really appealing in a "serious debate" forum.

I could ask you what would happen if we removed karma and how do you know it will be positive. Your main problem with karma isn't really the systems fault, but the users. You're using karma as a scapegoat for the actual problem.

The karma system doesn't cause the circlejerk mentality, it just makes it more prominent. It also isn't what causes people to be so afraid of voicing their opinions. They are afraid of being against the general consensus and the easiest way to contribute to this is showing what the general consensus is, which is karma.

As an example

Scenario A
User X sees user Y's comment which has been upvoted by user Z, N and M. User X disagrees but doesn't post because they don't want to be downvoted.

Scenario B
User Y, Z, N and M all post giving the same opinion. User X sees this and doesn't want to post because they fear that they will have Y, Z, N and/or M post comments against X.

You can ask for evidence but this is hypothetical. Just like how hypothetically removing karma, removes the problem.

I have a solution, why not just create an option when making a new thread that allows users to disable or enable karma?

Taryn wrote:

How exactly is this a good thing? Your idea of total conformity isn’t really appealing in a “serious debate” forum.

If you don't dare to stand by your opinion in a debate because of karma, you shouldn't partake in a discussion to begin with. The Debate board is an outlier, and shouldn't be included for deciding about karma on the entire forum.

RPP wrote:

2. If someone were to make a post worthy of being buried, a mod can just remove it.

Deleting posts is really only for things like spam or porn, so this isn't much of a reason.

I agree because you have a big dick

Deleting posts is really only for things like spam or porn, so this isn’t much of a reason.

In which case the otherwise buriable posts can just be left to be ignored. Besides that one point, have you any argument against the rest of my post? Like the part I have directly addressed to you at the second to last sentence?

If you don’t dare to stand by your opinion in a debate because of karma, you shouldn’t partake in a discussion to begin with. The Debate board is an outlier, and shouldn’t be included for deciding about karma on the entire forum.

Yes, but your argument was that people learn what to say based on what gets them karma. If you believe that you're not supposed to learn and you should stand by your opinion, then there is no argument.

Deleting posts is really only for things like spam or porn, so this isn’t much of a reason.

Burying was implemented for the purpose of hiding spam or gore in the case of mods not being present. This isn't really needed anymore due to the five thousand mods we have. It's useless except for this purpose, unless you're fine with censoring a person's opinion publicly. Thus, karma is useless.

thing is, the karma system helps forming that consensus and faciliates others adapting to the consensus, though you make it sound as if this consensus would be a good thing.

referring to your scenarios, if X replied and was downvoted to hell, he could either make a "uhh, why was i downvoted bwaa" post, which most likely noone would reply to since everyone would think he's some whiny kid upset about negative karma, or he wouldn't react at all.

scenario B would force YZNM to somehow reply to X's post in a more articulated way than clicking the "-". the point of "discussion", being providing arguments and counterarguments is partially ommited by the karma system, mainly when it comes to the less popular opinion or actually supporting the general consensus with actual arguments, not some number next to a post which is likely to contain nothing but an unproved assumption.

in the end, karma is like censorship performed by a majority, it prevents an actual discussion and argumentation, since people who can't come up with anything, just press one of the magic buttons and feel as if they have contributed something, it also stigmatises the downvoted/hidden post and the represented opinion and "devalues" the poster's arguments in the eyes of many, most wouldn't even bother reading the post if it is buried.

"most wouldn’t even bother reading the post if it is buried."
I'd have to challenge the validity of this statement. If I see a buried post it strikes my curiosity and I'm much more likely to read it then if it weren't buried. The same thing with negative karma. If someone has recieved either one, I want to know why.

So, I was thinking about something.

An argument I saw in this thread was that karma protects users from posts attacking them.

I think that point can easily be refuted if mods just act outside of protocol a little bit. If a user attacks someone, warn and suspend, remove offending posts, and reassure the user who was attacked.

A system like this would require a lot of trust and activity from forum mods, but I believe we were all chosen because we were capable of holding enough responsibility to do our jobs and act in the interests of the user.

Alright:

3. Without karma, users will be forced to voice their opinions with words or simply not speak, which will encourage discussion of topics rather than unexplained +1 or -1’s.

Do you truly truly believe that'll happen?

We know the average attention spam of users, which is low. Do you really believe those will always reply with arguments, when they can post reply GIFs?

I rather see 10 up- or downvotes, than 10 annoying reply GIFs or 10 replies no longer than 1 line. That's just spam, and it will bury the good posts, each thread again.

But it wouldn't force YZNM to reply in an more articulated way. They have the option to just dominate the conversation because they are the majority. Effectively it becomes the same as karma by making the dominant opinion the only one that is being taken into account by simply ignoring the other user. That is the equivalent to having the post hidden by low karma. Or even worse they could just shout the other user down.

It's not forced them to reply unless they want to. You're assuming that the karma is the reason why Z, N and M don't post articulate answers when its the consensus itself that is preventing X. Karma as I said before is the scapegoat for the problem, not the problem itself.

So, I was thinking about something.

An argument I saw in this thread was that karma protects users from posts attacking them.
I think that point can easily be refuted if mods just act outside of protocol a little bit. If a user attacks someone, warn and suspend, remove offending posts, and reassure the user who was attacked.

A system like this would require a lot of trust and activity from forum mods, but I believe we were all chosen because we were capable of holding enough responsibility to do our jobs and act in the interests of the user.

While I can see your point. I'm just not sure that I feel comfortable with the idea. I can see this turning into a continuation of what we have but now mods get their dicks sucked even more.

Most people do reply with annoying reaction GIFs anyway, because they know they'll get upvoted for it if they do

I disagree. I think a lot less people actively do things for karma then you think.

They know they wouldn't get called out for posting a reaction GIF and they know that people like them.

Karma's shit. The real fun is that we'll have a jolly good time together. I shitpost occasionally, and I don't care if I got downvote-bombed to the Nazis, if I made a post and got heard, downvote or not, I felt better.

Having Asperger's makes me unable to communicate to people properly, especially to the ones in real life as they have a properly established relationship towards others. No one wanted to listen me. I act differently, and I'm just a misfit towards the entire Malaysian Taiwanese pop culture, including in the interwebs. Back here when I can talk with Yankees that'll understand me made me much better. I don't feel like a complete weirdo anymore as they're similar weirdos out there willing to befriend me.
(but no offence tho. The Asians think were sick weirdos just because they can't properly spell "calcolater" right [or more politely: can't understand English])

So yeah, I don't give a fuck towards krama. It makes you fell like a total faggot. Screw kamra, have fun.

Right, Gaben?

I'm highly in favor of removing karma because of the various reasons highlighted above, but what if we kept it in the comments section, for the sake of regulation? Generally, the level of discourse is much lower over there, so it might be a helpful thing to have.

I honestly like the karma system. I may not have much power, but hey, I have the ability to upvote something that I liked to signify my approval. However, I don't like the down voting side of the system. By down voting something stupid, you only manage to dignify its existence. A good example is this faggot:

He made his carrier off our hatred of him. The more we hated him, the stronger he got.

In short, I give good karma where I see fit. And not giving negative karma is my way of giving negative karma. It pleases me to see a stupid ass post or comment with absolutely zero recognition.

Personally, I'm indifferent to the Karma system, but I do understand its purpose. However, what is the purpose of this:

This is probably the most ironic thread i've ever seen.

But seriously, karma should be made less obvious.

I personally don't care about the karma on people's walls, but I don't see what's wrong with karma in general on the forums.
If someone says something funny or you agree with him/her, it's a good way of showing you thought it was funny/agree with it.
I mean, instead of replying with 'haha' or some image like you see on a lot of other forums, here you only see a little number next to the post.

Sure, it can get abused sometimes, and sometimes more popular users get more upvotes, but let's not blow it out of proportion and pretend the whole forum is a circlejerk.

I'd like to just say that is actually a really good idea I and others have looked over. Because at least for the moment it looks like a good compromise. I've not seen anyone else respond to this. Anyone else like/dislike the idea?

I missed this on my first few looks at this thread, but this is simply perfect, I cannot think of any issues with this and it allows user choice on how a thread will function. Does anyone have any argument that could possibly make this seem less perfect?

Edit: I still think these internet points are idiotic and better removed however, this is just a good compromise.

Neg Karma is used as a disagree button or a troll. There really is no need for it. It is nice getting the "pat on the back", "good job" or "great post" but that can be made with a comment not a button. Fake internet points are retarded.

Yes.

Several people throughout this thread.

This is a thread about karma.

So now I guess the question in the end is where do we go from here?

So far it seems we're leaning more towards removing the system, but we're more varied on a whole. Let me compile the arguments of all the different users just to get some perspective

For Karma:
-Comments can’t receive downvotes anymore, people can post the most retarded and/or stupid opinions and easily get away with it. We’ll never truly know how many people disagree with them because after one person countered them, it’s no longer necessary for anyone else to reply and bring up the same points. It generates the idea that only individuals disagree with shit comments, and not a majority.

-Comments can’t receive upvotes anymore. You can make the best arguments ever, but you’ll never receive praise for it. People who disagree are more likely to reply, because people who agree don’t reply to just say “I agree”. You’ll feel singled out and will be less likely to share your quality opinion the next time.

-Comments can’t get buried anymore. Post the biggest shit imaginable, it will be visible forever anyways.

-Shitstorms ensue. You know the average intelligence of our comment section. If you can’t vote on posts anymore, sure you’ll have more replies. But with the comment section, this will result in more arguments over dumb things, thus more insults, thus more shitstorms. I rather have idiots hiding behind a downvote button that doesn’t really do big damage, than see their idiocy out in the open.(I would argue that the above points could be tackled by simply the mods stepping in to stop them happening).

-The problem is that users become popular and people get double standards other users don’t, which will not change if we remove the karma system

- If people were smart about it, it would be fine (upvoted posts would be posts that have good advice, are helpful, or contribute to the conversation/thread/article, whereas Downvotes ones would be spam, posts encouraging rule breaking, and arguments that do not contribute).

-Upvoting stuff can be used as a way to tell others it’s worth their time to read posts

-Karma allows Pseudo Moderation Powers to be granted to the users, and control the quality of the content being posted by rewarding good content and punishing bad content.

-Karma allows people to judge the overall content (Ratio of Received Karma) and the overall mentality (Ratio of Given Karma) of each individual user (I would argue this could have negative effects too)

-Karma allows people to give their opinions anonymously. (Again, not necessarily a positive)

-Karma in many ways helps keep our community in check but since those advantages are way less apparent than the disadvantages everyone only sees karma as a bad thing.

-It’s exactly because people care about karma that it has the desired effect. It bothers people to receive negative, and they like to get positive, as trivial as it may be. And they adapt to what gets them the desired karma.

-The karma system doesn’t cause the circlejerk mentality, it just makes it more prominent. It also isn’t what causes people to be so afraid of voicing their opinions. They are afraid of being against the general consensus and the easiest way to contribute to this is showing what the general consensus is, which is karma.

-It would be better to see 10 up or downvotes, than 10 annoying reply GIFs or 10 replies no longer than 1 line. That’s just spam, and it will bury the good posts, each thread again. (Worth pointing out that we don't allow spam anyway. As part of my comment policing initiative, comments which don't contribute to the conversation warrent a warning. It could be argued that this is just me being too strict)

-Removing karma wouldn’t force users to reply in an more articulated way, They have the option to just dominate the conversation because they are the majority.

-If someone says something funny or you agree with him/her, it’s a good way of showing you thought it was funny/agree with it, instead of replying with ‘haha’ or some image.